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Post by hal on Dec 19, 2021 17:27:39 GMT 1
Regarding the current rules for entry into France from UK, I cannot see how it is policed, or indeed, where it is policed.
Case in hand, someone flying into Toulouse from Heathrow with what is thought, a valid reason for travel. Is this left to British Airways to judge before boarding? Will there be a French Border Control person at the gate who will make a judgement, or is judgement left to be made on arrival at Toulouse? If the latter and it is judged the wrong way, who pays for the repatriation flight?
In this case in hand, what is the consensus here? - The passenger is my wife. She is a UK citizen and does not have a titre de sejour. I though, live in France, pay tax on my global income, not a French national but I live here here with a titre de sejour. I cannot make out from the rules if visiting family is only for French nationals or does it take in bone fide residents? And what defines 'family'?
We need to call the embassy in the morning on our particular circumstance, but it would be interesting how others might see it, or better, does anyone have an actual definition on the above that I have missed?
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Post by pcpa on Dec 19, 2021 18:01:14 GMT 1
An interesting scenario and one that I doubt has been considered.
Visiting family for French residents is a bit of a red herring, they have the right to return full stop as do you, no reason needed.
Judging from the previous lockdowns what will likely happen is your wife will be asked for her attestation and as long she has one and a a box is ticked that will be that.
They will have achieved their aims by putting off 99% of the would be travellers.
Caring for a dependant family member is a motif impérieux.
They are more likely to be on the lookout for "business travellers" carrying ski gear.
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ibis
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Post by ibis on Dec 19, 2021 18:02:15 GMT 1
A marriage certificate - or a PACs certificate translated if needed should work. Boyfriend or girlfriend I do not think counts..
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Post by Dominic Best on Dec 19, 2021 18:06:01 GMT 1
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FFS
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As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
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Post by FFS on Dec 19, 2021 18:14:48 GMT 1
If this is what you are referring to, then by that she's not allowed in, because she doesn't have a TdS: It doesn't, however, cover the policing of the entry into France, ie where the yes/no decision is taken.
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Post by hal on Dec 19, 2021 18:45:42 GMT 1
Yes, this list is the only one I have seen. A notaire friend of ours thinks that she might be able to come in on one of the clauses, dependent on how draconian the person judging the application feels.
It is no huge deal if she cannot get in, but it would be nice to know where the decision is taken as no one wants to get up at 5am to get a flight and then be turned back at Toulouse! The nearest we have come to finding out is that some reports say that French Border Control are operating at Ferry Ports, but no mention of they being allowed to extend their territory to UK airports. British Airways just do not answer their phones - I guess they have so many calls following their forced flight cancellations though.
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Post by plog on Dec 19, 2021 18:54:31 GMT 1
Regarding the current rules for entry into France from UK, I cannot see how it is policed, or indeed, where it is policed. Case in hand, someone flying into Toulouse from Heathrow with what is thought, a valid reason for travel. Is this left to British Airways to judge before boarding? Will there be a French Border Control person at the gate who will make a judgement, or is judgement left to be made on arrival at Toulouse? If the latter and it is judged the wrong way, who pays for the repatriation flight? In this case in hand, what is the consensus here? - The passenger is my wife. She is a UK citizen and does not have a titre de sejour. I though, live in France, pay tax on my global income, not a French national but I live here here with a titre de sejour. I cannot make out from the rules if visiting family is only for French nationals or does it take in bone fide residents? And what defines 'family'? We need to call the embassy in the morning on our particular circumstance, but it would be interesting how others might see it, or better, does anyone have an actual definition on the above that I have missed? 1. LHR - Documentation is policed by the check-in staff and/or gate staff at LHR. They work to a country script/checklist issued by “the management”…I have to say that on occasions those scripts have not always accurately and/or fully reflected what is written in the original French documentation. 2. I’m not aware of there being any facility/provision at all at LHR for operations by French Border Police (“PAF”), or any other nations Police force for that matter. 3. Recently BA staff at Toulouse have also been checking passengers Covid related documentation as people have left the aircraft, i.e. before they get as far as the PAF control point. Probably/possibly to avoid the airline picking up a fine…Not sure if they are continuing to do that. 4. Strictly speaking the airline is liable for the cost of repatriating somebody if they are deemed inadmissible on arrival…that can lead to check-in staff being very conservative/defensive in their reading of the rules, see point 1. The Motifs des Imperieux would seem to show that “conjoint” are very much regarded family as but I have no idea how a “conjoint” proves entitlement to entry to join the other “conjoint” if they are traveling solo, as FFS says the problem might well be the lack of a CDS. Hope it all works out OK… Link for Motifs des…….
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2021 19:05:08 GMT 1
I'm no lawyer but unless your on your last legs and clinging to life she is not a French resident so it's a non starter.
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Post by pcpa on Dec 19, 2021 19:11:26 GMT 1
If this is what you are referring to, then by that she's not allowed in, because she doesn't have a TdS: It doesn't, however, cover the policing of the entry into France, ie where the yes/no decision is taken. I read that many times in the original & was none the wiser, where you have highlighted of the two "S" was where I was getting confused, if bénéficiaires was singular - bénéficiaire then would that mean as long as the Ressortissant had a CdS then his family members (Hals wife) could travel without one? Perhaps a CdS covers young children on the bénéficiaire.
An observation on the list of motifs impérieux for non CdS Brits/non EU citizens travelling from the UK to France, there aren't any listed! Not even funerals, caring for dependant relatives, house moves etc unlike before, OK it has transport workers, language students, fonctionnaires etc but to me they are dérogations not motifs impérieux.
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Post by hal on Dec 19, 2021 19:15:29 GMT 1
Thanks Plog - I was hoping you might be there for some input. Interesting if BA will be doing the policing, and as they will pick up the cost if they judge incorrectly, then almost certainly she will not be leaving Blighty! She always said we should spend a Christmas working for the homeless - looks like she will be doing it! Mysty - I am not even sure that me on last legs will pull any weight! It seems like Macron is having the final shot at his mate on this one Regarding the covid at Toulouse. Getting used to walk in without any questions asked at Toulouse, I was surprised the other day to see two French Border controllers checking for passe sanitaires immediately after descending the steps. Those without a sufficient pass were herded into a bus that had 'Londres Gatwick' as its destination plate - begging the question did [EasyJet] mess up by not checking before boarding and these souls were to be delivered back to the next flight to London..? (this was two days before the latest measures)
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Post by Dominic Best on Dec 19, 2021 20:38:32 GMT 1
If this is what you are referring to, then by that she's not allowed in, because she doesn't have a TdS: That’s exactly what I was looking at and that’s exactly what I read it to mean. France has closed the door to all except the bare minimum and that’s the clause that covers a British passport holder who does not have a CdS. A friend, a U.K. passport holder and CdS holder used Eurotunnel to go to the U.K. yesterday evening. She told me that the border control were ‘tricky’ and not keen for her to leave France even though as a U.K. passport holder with a CdS she is one of that small group who may travel both ways. The measures are in place to prevent unnecessary travel and looking for loopholes is unlikely to be welcomed.
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Post by pcpa on Dec 19, 2021 20:47:16 GMT 1
Not keen could also have the interpretation that they suspect that the return criteria may in time become even tougher. Its already a lot tighter than in the past unless you are "talented" then you can bring your extended family with you , I still cannot see any motifs impérieux allowing UK citizen non CdS holders to enter France.
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Post by pcpa on Dec 19, 2021 20:52:24 GMT 1
For the Ferry crossings it is Policed by the French Border Police on UK soil at the departure port before check in.
On Thursday they weren't doing much Policing at all because of the massive queues, just a glance from a distance at a passport, vaccination certificate and Covid test, not concerned about CdS but that of course was before the deadline.
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Post by plog on Dec 19, 2021 22:08:50 GMT 1
…… Regarding the covid at Toulouse. Getting used to walk in without any questions asked at Toulouse, I was surprised the other day to see two French Border controllers checking for passe sanitaires immediately after descending the steps. Those without a sufficient pass were herded into a bus that had 'Londres Gatwick' as its destination plate - begging the question did [EasyJet] mess up by not checking before boarding and these souls were to be delivered back to the next flight to London..? (this was two days before the latest measures) Does indeed sound like EJ may have screwed up…not sure if the French would fine Easyjet and if so how much but I know some countries really do hammer airlines with multiple thousand dollar/euro fines if somebody arrives at Border with incorrect paperwork….and then deport the passenger anyway… As you say TLS used to be fairly relaxed..When I last came back to France through there about three months back it was all normal. Mrs Plog came home through there about a month back and it was all change and the extra checks you describe were being done…
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Post by hal on Dec 20, 2021 0:14:59 GMT 1
Mindful of how BA would have to police this and not giving any wriggle room on it, we are changing plans - a week outside Barcelona in a hotel out in the sticks. BA have four flights a day into Barcelona and the hotel is keen to have us, it is a no brainer!
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