JohnnyD
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Mayenne (53) When Covid allows..........Which isn't very often these days........
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Post by JohnnyD on Feb 5, 2022 21:11:48 GMT 1
Is the feed to the 6A two pin a separate feed, or is it just a parallel of the light feed? I havnt taken one apart yet in case it leads to disaster....If its dual feed, I guess i cant just plonk a 16A on the end, can you still buy dual sockets like it?
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Post by robertarthur on Feb 5, 2022 22:36:01 GMT 1
JohnnyD, this was once state of the art, late sixties, early seventies, probably made by Legrand. Have a look inside to check if they lived up to the regs of today: separate circuits for sockets and lights. Simple sockets not allowed anymore, except for replacement purposes. You will need an extra backbox. And a socket with earthpin. Legrand used to have a hybrid version: for the old type of backboxes - with griffes and the modern type with screws.
Your combi type is probably one of the members of the old "Legrand Chambord" family, see the website (museum?) of " La maison retro"
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JohnnyD
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Mayenne (53) When Covid allows..........Which isn't very often these days........
Posts: 1,973
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Post by JohnnyD on Feb 6, 2022 8:24:12 GMT 1
Hmmm …..reading your post implies I may also have old type back boxes so can’t fit modern faceplate replacements? Are the newer back boxes just a swap out or does it involve chiselling brickwork etc?
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Post by robertarthur on Feb 6, 2022 9:26:12 GMT 1
Summertime, when the living is easy....Wintertime when renovating your wiring makes life more difficult. There is no easy swap I'm afraid. Chiseling is the name of the game and add some mortar. Your old wiring will be 1.5 mm², easy to go into a standard gaine. Separate circuits for éclairage and prises: have a look at the pages number 237 and 238 what they have to say about le choix du diamètre des conduits en fonction du nombre de conducteurs. Several pages from an old edition of "Le grand livre de l'électricité", but not useless.
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Aardvark
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Living in soggy 22 and still wondering what's going on.
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Post by Aardvark on Feb 6, 2022 12:02:17 GMT 1
And look at the value of the circuit breaker that feeds that socket. I have seen them with only a 10 amp fuse. Putting a 16 amp socket on the end of that would be risky.
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Post by robertarthur on Feb 6, 2022 12:37:53 GMT 1
@ Aardvark, your line of reasoning, as I read it, would imply that a single circuit prise de courant protected by a 16 amp fuse or mcb could have only a maximum of one 16 amp socket(s)...... There are of course limitations (Amendement 5 of the French electrical code): Quantitatif de socles de prise de courant par circuit. Nouvelle limitation du nombre maximal de socles de prise de courant par circuit: • 8 lorsque la section des conducteurs du circuit est de 1,5 mm² en cuivre ; • 12 lorsque la section des conducteurs du circuit est de 2,5 mm² en cuivre. Désormais, le décompte par circuit des socles de prise de courant se fait selon la règle du « 1 pour 1 ». L’ancienne règle de comptage des socles multiples est supprimée. Once upon a time, the decompte regs, the art of French (multiple) socket counting, say it with pictures please, they made it easier and at the same time reduced the maximum amount of "single" sockets, more circuits prises needed. the old regs the new regs as from 2015, one = one.
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Post by pcpa on Feb 6, 2022 14:18:54 GMT 1
Does the switch operate the light in the room or other sockets (max 2) in the same room?
If so then I think that its une prise comandée and can operate 3 sockets from the lighting circuit.
the most important thing that you must do is check whether there is an earth conductor, if not then do not fit a 3 pin socket.
Your diagnostique électrique should give you all the information that you require.
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Post by robertarthur on Feb 6, 2022 16:19:58 GMT 1
@ pcpa, I had a look at several websites and saw this one: Va et vient + PC 10 A Legrand Chambord. My guess: it looks like a dual switch/socket combination. A special prise commandée circuit would probably have been a single switch with up to two separate prises somewhere in the room or corridor, feeding a point d'éclairage with surface mounted wiring to wall mounted lamps or with a cable to floor standing lamps. And the answer is?
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Post by Polarengineer on Feb 6, 2022 16:30:03 GMT 1
A lemon
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JohnnyD
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Mayenne (53) When Covid allows..........Which isn't very often these days........
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Post by JohnnyD on Feb 6, 2022 21:34:11 GMT 1
@ pcpa, I had a look at several websites and saw this one: Va et vient + PC 10 A Legrand Chambord. My guess: it looks like a dual switch/socket combination. A special prise commandée circuit would probably have been a single switch with up to two separate prises somewhere in the room or corridor, feeding a point d'éclairage with surface mounted wiring to wall mounted lamps or with a cable to floor standing lamps. And the answer is? There are 4 of these in the house, I suspect 5 as one is in a similar place in the second bedroom but seems to be a 16A more modern socket with earth pin, so maybe that has been replaced at some point, all but one have the switch which does not switch the socket, but switches the light in that room. If there is no earth wire supplying the 2 pin 6A, am i allowed to replace them with a 16A with earth socket?
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Post by robertarthur on Feb 6, 2022 21:58:01 GMT 1
You are allowed to replace a defective socket: "Dans le cas bien précis si l’ancienne prise est défectueuse, il est possible de la remplacer par une autre prise neuve sans terre." Because you have one or more interrupteurs différentiel of 30 mA installed if I remember well you are not taking safety risks as long as you connect standard equipment (vacuum cleaner, electric drill) to it.
It is not allowed to install a standard 16 amp socket with earth pin without connecting it to earth.
Because a French installation électrique has to conform at least to the regs of yesterday, those relevant during the construction of your house and wiring - you don't have to be afraid for the gendarmerie, coming to take you away to a bed and breakfast hotel surrounded by walls and barbed wire. So you don't have to change this French industrial heritage. If you wish to do so, there is no other way than to install a second back box. Or promote the existing back box to one socket only (+ extra earth wire) and do something creative with a modern wireless switch for your light(s).
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JohnnyD
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Mayenne (53) When Covid allows..........Which isn't very often these days........
Posts: 1,973
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Post by JohnnyD on Feb 6, 2022 22:07:34 GMT 1
You are allowed to replace a defective socket: "Dans le cas bien précis si l’ancienne prise est défectueuse, il est possible de la remplacer par une autre prise neuve sans terre." Because you have one or more interrupteurs différentiel of 30 mA installed if I remember well you are not taking safety risks as long as you connect standard equipment (vacuum cleaner, electric drill) to it. It is not allowed to install a standard 16 amp socket with earth pin without connecting it to earth. Because a French installation électrique has to conform at least to the regs of yesterday, those relevant during the construction of your house and wiring - you don't have to be afraid for the gendarmerie, coming to take you away to a bed and breakfast hotel surrounded by walls and barbed wire. So you don't have to change this French industrial heritage. If you wish to do so, there is no other way than to install a second back box. Or promote the existing back box to one socket only (+ extra earth wire) and do something creative with a modern wireless switch for your light(s). Very useful info Robert, thank you, so if I wanted to replace old/defective sockets, can you buy them new? Or are you looking at second hand units? I havnt taken one apart yet to see if there in an Earth wire or not, it’s too cold if something drastic happens when I take it off the walls…..
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Post by pcpa on Feb 6, 2022 23:33:40 GMT 1
No earth conductor then do not even think about fitting a 2P+T socket. You might never plug anything but a double insulated appliance into it, you may have 30ma differentiel protection on the circuit although I doubt it, someone in the future may not and the person who fitted an unearthed 2P+T socket would be criminally negligent if there was an accident. This is going to sound harsh but if you have to ask the question of whether you can fit a 2P+T socket without an earth conductor you really should not be working on the electrical system of your property. Finally the presence of an earth conductor is not enough, you absolutely must test its continuity and the functioning of any differentiel trip devices, I use one of these, they are very cheap, well if you buy them elsewhere that is, even at LM prices its absolutely worth it for peace of mind. www.leroymerlin.fr/produits/electricite-domotique/rallonge-multiprise-enrouleur-et-cable-electrique/appareil-de-mesure/testeur-de-prises-multimetrix-non-v-66875256.html
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Le-Dolly
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Post by Le-Dolly on Feb 6, 2022 23:51:26 GMT 1
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JohnnyD
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Post by JohnnyD on Feb 7, 2022 17:28:51 GMT 1
No earth conductor then do not even think about fitting a 2P+T socket. You might never plug anything but a double insulated appliance into it, you may have 30ma differentiel protection on the circuit although I doubt it, someone in the future may not and the person who fitted an unearthed 2P+T socket would be criminally negligent if there was an accident. This is going to sound harsh but if you have to ask the question of whether you can fit a 2P+T socket without an earth conductor you really should not be working on the electrical system of your property. Finally the presence of an earth conductor is not enough, you absolutely must test its continuity and the functioning of any differentiel trip devices, I use one of these, they are very cheap, well if you buy them elsewhere that is, even at LM prices its absolutely worth it for peace of mind. www.leroymerlin.fr/produits/electricite-domotique/rallonge-multiprise-enrouleur-et-cable-electrique/appareil-de-mesure/testeur-de-prises-multimetrix-non-v-66875256.html
One sometimes asks the question just to hear/quantify the answer……..the reason I asked it for people to comment on is because it would seem someone previous to us buying the property has done exactly that. Four of the 2P+T here do not have an earth, one is live/neutral reversed, both my wife and I know not to use those sockets until we can have it sorted, also all circuits in the house have 30ma differentiel protection, its one of the first things I did to make it safer, it had an old Hagar fuse box before then which seemed very dangerous to me.....
I would guess the French electrician the previous French owner (a very elderly woman) got in to fit some 2P+T sockets did it by just replacing some old 6A 2 pin sockets.......
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