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Post by limousinlady on Apr 13, 2022 8:51:30 GMT 1
Does anyone know whether you can replace a diaphragm in a water ballon or test if it is leaking? The ballon is a Varem 100 L - 10 bar small red tank connected to the pump from our water source in the garden and facilitates all the water to the house. For a time, the ballon has been losing pressure and OH re-pumps it to bring it back every couple of months. This hasn't been a problem until when he went into hospital and I had to deal with it. So, I've told him now is the time to sort out all the 'little' jobs that usually get a temporary fix. He has checked the valve and that is not leaking and the tank looks good as new albeit now 10 years old. It cost over Eu200 when first bought. Is it fixable?
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Post by Polarengineer on Apr 13, 2022 9:00:01 GMT 1
A proper hydrofore would have a bolted flange that clamped the diaphragm and could be replaced. The cheapo italian expansion tanks have the diaphragm squeeged between the flanges which are rolled shut and impossible to repair. A photo of your unit would help define if it can be repared. edit. I looked the Varem 100 ltr horizontal "maxired" unit up and that one shows a 6 bolt flange, so if you can find it, you should be able to replace the diaphragm. I would also get a new valve at the same time.
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Post by limousinlady on Apr 13, 2022 11:29:11 GMT 1
A proper hydrofore would have a bolted flange that clamped the diaphragm and could be replaced. The cheapo italian expansion tanks have the diaphragm squeeged between the flanges which are rolled shut and impossible to repair. A photo of your unit would help define if it can be repared. edit. I looked the Varem 100 ltr horizontal "maxired" unit up and that one shows a 6 bolt flange, so if you can find it, you should be able to replace the diaphragm. I would also get a new valve at the same time. Sorry, I couldn't post pics. . But here is a link to a new one - it looks like this, although I haven't checked the spec. productshopper.fr/product/10-2-138205-fc8c110f1c72fab3b082c36c0057fd40/pompes-direct/varem-maxired-varem-vertical-100l-varem-reservoir-?source=product-detail. I guess if this is classed as a cheap Italien version, 10 years usage isn't bad and perhaps, we should bite the bullet and buy a new one. Thanks for your advice. I will show to OH.
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Post by Polarengineer on Apr 13, 2022 12:58:08 GMT 1
Yes the one in the link has a bolted flange and you should be able to change the diaphragm. Probably worth getting a new one to avoid the hassle of finding spares and fitting.
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Post by limousinlady on Apr 13, 2022 15:11:06 GMT 1
Yes the one in the link has a bolted flange and you should be able to change the diaphragm. Probably worth getting a new one to avoid the hassle of finding spares and fitting. I have now found a diaphragm on that site too and it was nearly Eu.100, so as you say, probably not worth the hassle. Thanks for all your help though.
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Post by pcpa on Apr 13, 2022 18:48:53 GMT 1
I have just recommissioned a very old well pump, my property has never been connected to the mains, it has a very large very thick 7 bar rated vertical ballon that will be used for my sprayshop when I relace it with a small surpresseur (it has a large 3 phase pump). It does not appear to have a membrane & seems designed to have an air pocket at the top which is compressed.
The water is pumped in to the bottom, the outlet pipe is a little way above the bottom and there is a drain tap mid way up, as I filled it from empty the water level is above the mid way drain tap (with the system depressurised) and I am not sure if I should drain the level down to that, how much of an expansion volume should there be on one of these non membrane pressure vessels? The less there is the quicker the pressure will drop and the more the pump will kick in.
Its between 100 and 150 litres volume by my guesstimate.
It's good fun discovering these new (or in this case very old) things!
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Post by pcpa on Apr 13, 2022 18:51:57 GMT 1
so as you say, probably not worth the hassle. Little or no hassle fitting it: + La vessie est facilement interchangeable
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Post by limousinlady on Apr 13, 2022 21:56:06 GMT 1
OH came up with an 'inspired' thought. Could he pump in puncture sealant,through the valve, as you use on car tyres?
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Post by Polarengineer on Apr 14, 2022 8:25:23 GMT 1
I have no experience of the spray in puncture fixer. However. 1 - I assume that this would be a temporary fix. 2- I would not assume the bladder material is the same as an inner tube and be compatible with the spray. 3 - An inner tube would not flex as much as the bladder and would not have a tyre to support it. 4 - The valve may not like the fix glue and make it difficult for the next air fill.
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Post by Polarengineer on Apr 14, 2022 8:47:48 GMT 1
I have just recommissioned a very old well pump, my property has never been connected to the mains, it has a very large very thick 7 bar rated vertical ballon that will be used for my sprayshop when I relace it with a small surpresseur (it has a large 3 phase pump). It does not appear to have a membrane & seems designed to have an air pocket at the top which is compressed. The water is pumped in to the bottom, the outlet pipe is a little way above the bottom and there is a drain tap mid way up, as I filled it from empty the water level is above the mid way drain tap (with the system depressurised) and I am not sure if I should drain the level down to that, how much of an expansion volume should there be on one of these non membrane pressure vessels? The less there is the quicker the pressure will drop and the more the pump will kick in. Its between 100 and 150 litres volume by my guesstimate. It's good fun discovering these new (or in this case very old) things! I too have worked with these hydrophores. The main problem is that the air slowly dissolves into the water and eventually the pump gets too many starts (this can damage the motor and its electrical starter). The valve halfway up the tank is a cheapo level gauge of sorts. Old scotch boilers sometimes had two or three to test where the water level was. If there is no air valve at the top of your tank, then the only way to get air in is to drain the tank and admit air via the side level valve. Open this side level valve until no water comes out of the side valve and air starts to enter. That should be the right amount of air in the tank. before using the tank as an air compressor storage vessel, you might take into account its age and potential corrosion. Check the relief pressure of your compressor and multiply this by 1.25. Then fill the tank (upsidedown to ensure there is no air in it) and pressurize it to this figure. Leave for an hour with all valve closed and see if it retains that pressure. Note. The reason to use water and not air for this test is that a tank under pressure will explode if it fails if pressurized with air ( deadly), but it will only split open if filled with water (much safer). Hope this helps. Stay safe.
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Post by pcpa on Apr 14, 2022 9:31:53 GMT 1
That is a joke right?
Your posting says "facilitates all the water to the house" so drinking maybe, cooking, showering, washing cleaning teeth probably, you definitely do not want that toxic cocktail of chemicals anywhere near anything sanitary, I say this having cleaned it from the inside of tyres.
It would not work because it remains foam eventually liquid within the tyre air volume and hardens on contact with the outside air through the puncture, you have water the other side of the membrane/bladder/vessie so it will pollute it.
Having learned more last night about my non membrane galvanised ballon Inow know that the membrane ones like yours are for potable water so that it never comes into contact with air, the bacteria thrive with air contact, if yours does indeed feed all of the house then you must replace the vessie urgently and limit to a maximum your contact with the water that is because the air that is leaking from the bladder is entering into the water and each time you pump it up (with an unclean hand or footpump with greased seals) that air will find its way into the water, you effectively have a non sanitary system like mine.
That said the family lived 50 years with their (not) potable water coming from a non sanitary ballon and the well is only a few metres from the brick fosse which the toilet empties into.
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Post by pcpa on Apr 14, 2022 9:37:07 GMT 1
Postings overlapped, I had not seen your two Polarengineer, thanks for the advice I had come to the same conclusion as you regarding setting the water level except I will endevour to get the level to the drain tap when it is pressurised to the lower cut in point of the pump which is what the ones with an automatic purge function achieve.
Re using the cylinder for my air compressor we are on the same page, I have grown up around pressure vessels and air over hydraulic testing, I even have my own home made test rig for house plumbing.
Thanks again.
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Post by limousinlady on Apr 14, 2022 10:38:39 GMT 1
That is a joke right? Your posting says "facilitates all the water to the house" so drinking maybe, cooking, showering, washing cleaning teeth probably, you definitely do not want that toxic cocktail of chemicals anywhere near anything sanitary, I say this having cleaned it from the inside of tyres. My thoughts too.
It would not work because it remains foam eventually liquid within the tyre air volume and hardens on contact with the outside air through the puncture, you have water the other side of the membrane/bladder/vessie so it will pollute it. Having learned more last night about my non membrane galvanised ballon Inow know that the membrane ones like yours are for potable water so that it never comes into contact with air, the bacteria thrive with air contact, if yours does indeed feed all of the house then you must replace the vessie urgently and limit to a maximum your contact with the water that is because the air that is leaking from the bladder is entering into the water and each time you pump it up (with an unclean hand or footpump with greased seals) that air will find its way into the water, you effectively have a non sanitary system like mine. - Thank you for the explanation. We don't drink it but do all the other stuff.
That said the family lived 50 years with their (not) potable water coming from a non sanitary ballon and the well is only a few metres from the brick fosse which the toilet empties into. I have contacted the manufacturer, who have given me the contact for the distributor in France. But in view of the age of the vessel and possible corrosion inside, I think we will go forget trying to fix it and buy a new one.
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Post by pcpa on Apr 14, 2022 20:58:16 GMT 1
It should not have any corrosion inside as until the bladder leaked the inner wall was only in contact with water and no air.
To PolarEngineer, I had a good fiddle with it today, its a 200 litre tank, I underestimated, as the drain tap was at 1/3 height and not the 1/2 way point like modern ones that use an auto-purge I followed your method and drained it back to that point and let the airspace equalise to atmospheric pressure.
That means it has approx 66 litres water at atmospheric pressure which could be used if it were high in the building but not in the sous sol, when pressurised to 3 bar there will be approx 156 litres of water and 44 litres of air at 3 bar, when 45 litres of water has been drawn the pressure will have dropped to 1.5 bar, when 60 litres have been drawn the pressure will have dropped to 1 bar and the pump will kick in.
I need to do some adjustments of the pressostat but it was working pretty much like that and much better than before I had drained it to the correct level, before the pump was cutting in after drawing not much water.
I now know what the hose was for that was draped around the ballon, I would say that it has needed draining down quite frequently.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2022 6:33:58 GMT 1
I have just recommissioned a very old well pump, my property has never been connected to the mains, it has a very large very thick 7 bar rated vertical ballon that will be used for my sprayshop when I relace it with a small surpresseur (it has a large 3 phase pump). It does not appear to have a membrane & seems designed to have an air pocket at the top which is compressed. The water is pumped in to the bottom, the outlet pipe is a little way above the bottom and there is a drain tap mid way up, as I filled it from empty the water level is above the mid way drain tap (with the system depressurised) and I am not sure if I should drain the level down to that, how much of an expansion volume should there be on one of these non membrane pressure vessels? The less there is the quicker the pressure will drop and the more the pump will kick in. Its between 100 and 150 litres volume by my guesstimate. It's good fun discovering these new (or in this case very old) things! You will need to get the water quality checked on a regularly basis to be on the safe side.
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