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Post by omegal on May 14, 2022 12:32:12 GMT 1
Meanwhile the eco warriors are letting down SUV tyres in the posh parts of London. That will make a difference. Yes but the upside is it annoys the hell out of the Daily Mail brigade and/or brits living in France if another forum is anything to go by. Yes the old name of GOG on the forum should now be changed back to MOG (Miserable old Gits) what a load of moaning minnies and one in particular
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Post by jackie on May 14, 2022 17:23:39 GMT 1
. ‘They should lock the whole lot up and throw away the key....as for that Greta Thunderberg, she wants a good clip round the earhole, young slip of a girl telling her elders how they should be living their lives - Should be at school instead of gallavanting around the world like some celebrity.......’ 😆
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Post by hal on May 14, 2022 18:26:06 GMT 1
I was chastised a while back for saying the same. Though thinking on it, I might have inserted the retard word in there, but I agree with you
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Post by cernunnos on May 14, 2022 18:38:18 GMT 1
. ‘They should lock the whole lot up and throw away the key....as for that Greta Thunderberg, she wants a good clip round the earhole, young slip of a girl telling her elders how they should be living their live. Should be at school instead of gallavanting around the world like some celebrity.......’ 😆 Obviously tongue in wherever?
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Post by jackie on May 14, 2022 19:17:53 GMT 1
‘Not to mention ‘I’m absolutely fuming about that eco mob lot gluing themselves to pavements and stopping the traffic but I’m ok about the petrochemical industries, logging companies and their deforestation etc stripping destroying the earths ecosystems for the sake of quick profits but them eco-mob types, even though they may be scientists and knowledgable people they have no right to disrupt things in a Country I no longer live in and whose actions I’m not affected by....but the Daily Mail said I should be angry about it and so I am....’
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Post by jackie on May 14, 2022 19:21:12 GMT 1
. ‘They should lock the whole lot up and throw away the key....as for that Greta Thunderberg, she wants a good clip round the earhole, young slip of a girl telling her elders how they should be living their live. Should be at school instead of gallavanting around the world like some celebrity.......’ 😆 Obviously tongue in wherever? Of course....
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Post by cernunnos on May 14, 2022 19:24:02 GMT 1
Love it Jackie,exactly my thoughts . But most folk just read without thinking and don't worry about the " big picture" I had given up a while ago , just look after " us " ( me, the wife, our dog, cat, and all those that live on our property) We can't change the world , it is too late , just sit back and try to be as comfortable as possible.
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exile
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Massif Central
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Post by exile on May 14, 2022 20:24:25 GMT 1
Before all of the eco-warriors go off in a paroxysm of self righteousness, a few points about that nasty petrochemical industry that you might not have considered. This from the part of the industry that I am/was familiar with viz. Plastics. You know those nasty materials made purely for profit.
1.. Electricity. The substantial reduction in house fires now compared with pre-ww2 is due in part at least to cables being embedded in PVC to act an an insulator. No longer are cables carrying 240V and a significant number of amps coated with cotton (do you know how un-ecofriendly cotton production is?) and shellac or a rubber compound that perished in just a few years.
2. Water. Replacing old pipework with HDPE Blue piping has reduced significantly the number of leaks. The pipes have a degree of flexibility which means heavy traffic running above the buried pipes does not cause fractures. In addition the use of lead, which was also used because it could withstand a degree of movement and distortion, has been reduced dramatically. Lead poisoning cases have fallen dramatically.
3. Gas. Similarly the use of yellow gas HDPE piping has significantly reduced leaks in the supply system. Of course in the ideal world we would not be burning gas - but we are and we should make it as safe and efficient as we can until a replacement is widely available.
4. Insulation. Much of the insulation used is plastics based. It reduces our energy needs and stops the bad being much worse.
5. Transport. The wide use of plastics has reduced the weight of our transport modes. Cars are estimated to be 25% lighter today than those on the past based on purely metal construction.
6. Food. Perhaps the most controversial due to excessive packaging. However before plastic packaging around 50% of all food produced for human consumption never got to be consumed by humans. Insects, rodents and simple rotting in storage caused massive losses. Today with plastic packaging as well as the storage solutions that it allows (inert atmosphere, freezing etc..) that loss is down to around 20%.
So by all means be critical of the petrochemicals industry but beware of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
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Post by ForumUser2 on May 14, 2022 20:38:12 GMT 1
Especially,eco-warriors, as you type on your plastic PC with its rare metals mined by child labour in the Congo.
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Aardvark
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Living in soggy 22 and still wondering what's going on.
Posts: 2,172
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Post by Aardvark on May 14, 2022 20:55:45 GMT 1
A very good argument in favour of plastics. That commodity in itself is only a tiny part of the problem. The problem is the total number of people the planet (or ecosystem) has to support. Once the population gets past a certain critical figure, things take off in a different direction. Production of things goes far beyond cottage industry level and becomes profit motivated. Corners are cut to increase profits for a few at the top. Concern for nature diminishes inversely proportional to chasing "growth" year on year.
In the natural world, animals for instance, when the population of a species grows to a point beyond what the region can support, that species dies out to a level that can be supported. In extreme situations total extinction results. So it has been for countless years. With advances in medicine, technology, and mobility humans have managed to buck this trend. Whatever we do will be detrimental to the rest of the planet once our numbers get too high. Sorry peeps. Given runaway population increase, nothing we do will be "planet friendly". Give up petrol/diesel powered cars for electric? Production of batteries consumes yet another finite resource and pollutes like crazy during production. Every single "solution" offered by the eco nutters has a downside if you scratch below the surface. The planet will survive. Life will survive. Humans might not.
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Post by jackie on May 14, 2022 20:57:56 GMT 1
Yep we’re all caught up and complicit in it by the very fact of having the means of being able to post on this forum. I also agree that plastics have transformed our lives, from making sterility so much easier in medicine and food preservation but also has been abused for profit too. The man who invented bio-degradable plastic encountered no interest his product. Things could have been so different with a little foresight.....
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exile
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Post by exile on May 14, 2022 21:32:57 GMT 1
The man who invented bio-degradable plastic encountered no interest his product. Things could have been so different with a little foresight..... Possibly for good reason jackie. 1. So far all biodegradable packaging is based on polymerisation of starch and produces rigid packages/structures. Not a good solution for a flexible plastic bag. So do you know what they do? They put up to 49% polyester fibres into the product. These fine fibres provide the flexibility you find in your "biodegradable" sack. But of course these fine fibres do not degrade and if the starch based substrate does break down then you are left with a whole lot of micro-plastic particles. 2. Biodegradable packaging is actually not very biodegradable. If you put it into an industrial composting unit, then it does break down and degrade. However Plymouth University have conducted trials with biodegradable bags. Some they put into a garden compost heap. Some they buried in the ground and some they fixed under the low water mark in Plymouth harbour. After 3 years not one single sample had shown any obvious signs of degradation. If you want more info google MAST (MAterials and STructures Research Group) Plymouth University whose work continues to find biodegradable plastics and to look at the consequences of their breakdown. In other words even if a material breaks down do not just believe that the world can live with the degradation products.
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exile
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Post by exile on May 14, 2022 21:34:18 GMT 1
Especially,eco-warriors, as you type on your plastic PC with its rare metals mined by child labour in the Congo. Wearing their Lycra underwear, a polyester pair of trousers and acrylic top.
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Post by pcpa on May 14, 2022 21:44:57 GMT 1
Cars are estimated to be 25% lighter today than those on the past based on purely metal construction. I agree with everything else you said and I'm sure I agree with what you probably wanted to express regarding plastics in vehicles. Any previous metal parts replaced with modern plastic equivalents will be at least 25% probably 50% lighter than their predecessor unfortunately the vehicles, use a 4/5 seat family vehicle as the example are now 50 to 100% heavier than they were in the past because of all the extra rubbish added to them be they "must have" gadgets which are superflous to the function of the vehicle, emissions control equipment or simply beefing up of components for longevity, the latter being an acceptable trade off. Even if you look at individual vehicle models that carry the same name, Golf, Polo, Astra, Nova/Corsa you will see that the latest evolutions are much bigger and heavier than the to me far more desirable originals. JohhnyD's new Golf is bigger than the Land Rover that it replaced, I bet it weighs nearly as much. Its a pity that the seperation and recycling of the plastic parts on a vehicle is so complex and non cost effective to recycle compared to the steel and alloy components.
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exile
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Post by exile on May 14, 2022 22:33:19 GMT 1
Recycle is indeed the issue - and not just for car components.
If you look at something as simple as a soda/mineral water bottle, it is probably made up of three different plastics. The bottle itself is PET (Polyethylene Terephthalate), the cap and security ring is made from High Density Polyethylene (HDPE), and the label if it is not paper, will be a highly modified polypropylene (PP) film. Each of these materials provides unique properties that we as consumers like or that are technically necessary.
I despair at our recycle systems in France that will accept a shampoo bottle but not a plastic sack (that I know to be from the same material but most people would not of course).
FWIW (which is probably not much), although there are all sorts of selective recycle systems*, the best end result would be to collect all plastic waste unseparated and break it down under heat and pressure and return it to an oil like base that could then go through the distillation, separation and purification steps that crude oil does today.
* as examples our local Super U is now accepting back some PET bottles which are shredded in the machine for recycle and reward you with 1c per bottle. Another local initiative is collecting the HDPE tops from drinks bottles (in aid of a local charity) but when I see what is put into the bin I despair - metal bottle caps from beers, Tops off of jars which are largely from other materials etc..
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