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Post by tim17 on Apr 17, 2023 14:49:41 GMT 1
Much has been made about the size of the pay demands but I think pay is only part of the issue here and I wish more focus was put on the working conditions that NHS workers have to face everyday. I'm sure that if nurses and junior doctors were offered a reasonable pay increase along with a government commitment to radically and speedily reform the NHS then the disputes would end tomorrow.
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Post by ForumUser2 on Apr 17, 2023 16:19:39 GMT 1
From a career spent in healthcare I think one of the greatest areas of waste is malingering and the unfounded demands of the worried well.
Bearing in mind I was a surgeon, not a GP, I can only look back to my days in general medicine - although I expect little has changed - where up to maybe 50% of my time was wasted by those mentioned above. I know there's good arguments against any form of triage but with limited resources it's a must. Nurse practitioners, paramedics etc are, to my mind, ideally qualified to sort the wheat from the chaff at, dare I say it, a fraction of the expense of a GP while leaving the shrinking pool of physicians and Surgeons to get on with healing the sick.
I'd also beg for greater mental health and community health services funding to both treat and prevent acute stress on the A and E services which otherwise get used as a catch all for care that can be provided elsewhere.
And on the grounds that people value most that which costs them most I'd introduce some form of charge for using the healthcare services the better to deter the timewasters. Yes, I know that's easy to say but I'm not paid to sort these things out - unlike successive Health secretaries who are and who are, essentially, walking bags of useless ego.
And I would also suggest that the dog-whistle demand to reduce management should be recognised for its vacuity. Any organisation needs managed effectively. If NHS managers don't do it who does? The medical staff? The Army? Uncle Albert?
The bottom line is funding. Poorly managed facilities employing underpaid staff who have to work to exacting standards without always having the proper support gets you to where we are now. Bellicose politicians who bicker like children yet fail to achieve any improvement need, for once, to be honest and say that the Service is crumbling, it can't be fixed without major cost implications so either the general population pays more or the service continues to be rationed.
The current NHS on the cheap is just crumbling away. No wonder those expected to do more for less are leaving in droves. The big surprise to me is how many good people continue to feed the hand that bites them.
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Post by mangetout on Apr 17, 2023 19:09:53 GMT 1
I would agree with what you say having come from a family of hypercondriacs, but if GPS can't or won't tell it as it is what can you do. I listened to family members talking about their trivial medical problems whilst my husband died a very nasty death but they just couldn't see it. Earache versus lung cancer, really. How you doctors put up with it I don't know.
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omegal
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Post by omegal on Apr 17, 2023 19:59:02 GMT 1
Balderdash, it is an attempt by extreme Left unions and their Momentum allies to subvert democracy and bring down the government Of course health staff should be well paid but such discussions can only take place in a calm atmosphere. There is plenty of money in the NHS wasted on bull**it administration and c*ckups. It all started going wrong when it was taken under the wing of the Department of Health. This should be reversed and the thing localised or regionalised. And admin should be reduced hugely, replaced by decisions based on real medical need, and bed blocking fined severely. NHS hospitals at present pay Council Tax - what nonsense, public money moving from one branch to another and being top sliced in the process. Still the very far right supporter WB, Boris never lies, Mrs May was outed by the left wing, the brexit negotiations were wrecked by remainers telling lies, helped by the EU negotiating team of course. How can unions possibly bring down the government? The Tories have the Daily Mail, Mail on Sunday, the Sun, Daily telegraph, Daily Express so probably 90/% of the British press. So the unions are there to get salary increases from a corrupt government backed by the press barons, it would be a fine union to beat that lot and you know that is never going to happen. It is the people that will see this lot thrown out, not the unions, blaming the unions is a last gasp effort to try and accuse them of being the enemy of the state. Not going to work must be something else you can try?
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Post by pcpa on Apr 17, 2023 20:05:06 GMT 1
Still the respectfull moderate peacemaker Omegal.
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Post by woolybanana on Apr 17, 2023 22:50:33 GMT 1
Dont know who these far right posters are! But all I see is rehearsed left wing posters with a party imposed view of UK politics and in this case the NHS. Shame on you for having your brains obliterated by left wing propaganda or bullsh*it in other words.
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Post by ForumUser2 on Apr 17, 2023 22:52:20 GMT 1
I would agree with what you say having come from a family of hypercondriacs, but if GPS can't or won't tell it as it is what can you do. I listened to family members talking about their trivial medical problems whilst my husband died a very nasty death but they just couldn't see it. Earache versus lung cancer, really. How you doctors put up with it I don't know. I know. It's galling. You have no idea how wonderful it would be to be able to say to some people would they just go away so we have time to treat those who are really in need. Managing expectations is getting harder as people are more demanding and I got out just around the time people were starting to use Dr Google as their reference work. I hear tales from colleagues about patients refusing to accept a diagnosis because they looked their symptoms up on Google... Some might remember I did a bit of work in South Wales during lockdown 1 in A and E and I have to say that we weren't getting the normal levels of trivia. Somehow that urgent need that some feel was displaced by the fear at that time. Those that came to A and E needed it. If only those regulars would keep away in normal times. I know that all sounds cynical but it's based on observable truth! I feel it only fair to confess that I hated working in NHS facilities (it happened more than I'd like because it's the only way to progress in peacetime in my specialty) so maybe have a jaundiced view. But those that work for the NHS, at least at clinical level, certainly aren't overpaid. Quite the opposite.
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omegal
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Post by omegal on Apr 17, 2023 23:12:56 GMT 1
Still the respectfull moderate peacemaker Omegal. Better than being a continual stirrer pcpa, no one rung your bell
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Post by omegal on Apr 17, 2023 23:18:42 GMT 1
Dont know who these far right posters are! But all I see is rehearsed left wing posters with a party imposed view of UK politics and in this case the NHS. Shame on you for having your brains obliterated by left wing propaganda or bullsh*it in other words. Look in the mirror, or as you have done for years denied being a far right wing Tory. Funny then how you call people who do not take your view "left wing" which then of course makes you right wing and certainly not centre. So you've brought it down to your level, where taking nasty pops at someone who disagrees as having no brains, obliterated by left wing propaganda, or bullshit.....pathetic retort at best and a Tory retort as well. Have a nice day sir.....
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Post by exile on Apr 17, 2023 23:56:57 GMT 1
Balderdash, it is an attempt by extreme Left unions and their Momentum allies to subvert democracy and bring down the government Of course health staff should be well paid but such discussions can only take place in a calm atmosphere. So let's start junior doctors - irrespective of whether their leaders are extreme left or not - the government has not yet agreed to start negotiations. The government view seems to be, drop the 35% and then we can start to talk about talks. This however just slightly ignores the basis of negotiation viz. both sides enter the negotiation with a view and they then hopefully negotiate to somewhere in the middle that completely satisfies neither party based on their original position. I note that their nasty left wing leaders have talked about restoring remuneration to former levels (35%) but have not suggested that this has to happen in one year. So in the case of the junior doctors that calm atmosphere cannot occur until such time as the government decides it is actually going to discuss, ideas, compromises etc cannot take place. Then we have those nasty left wing RCN nurses whose extreme leaders recommended accepting the offer on the table of a lowish (compared with the 19% they originally asked for) percentage plus a one off lump sum. Their members said no, not good enough. The margin was small but clearly the membership are far more extreme than the militant leaders. You have to ask what is the government strategy in all of this. They refused to negotiate with the nurse for many months. They refused to negotiate with the paramedics and ambulance staff for many months. They have not started negotiations with junior doctors. There seems to be a pattern of let's not talk about it and hope the problem goes away. But the problem is that medical professionals are voting with their feet and leaving - going to other lands where the package is so much better, retiring early or even retiring due to prolonged ill health (often stress related, even going to supermarkets and delivery companies for a better work life balance. The Newcastle on Tyne rally of junior doctors last Friday was attended by a number of consultants who were prepared to speak out and say they fully understand the junior doctors' position despite the pressures that landed on their own shoulders during the strikes. Who would have thought - nasty extreme left wing consultants. Just a suggestion, but perhaps grasping a few facts before having a political tirade might lead to more rational discussion - in a calm atmosphere or course.
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Post by tim17 on Apr 18, 2023 7:18:02 GMT 1
The problem the RCN union nurses have is that Unison which represents some nurses and also paramedics have agreed pay the same deal, that gives the government a bit of strength and should the strikes continue will erode public support.
There are no instant fixes for the NHS but I don't think simply slinging tens of billions extra into the pot every year will solve anything and the money would either have to be borrowed or taxes would have to rise to pay for it. FU2 might like to correct me but IMO part of the current problem is 1) the general public are now so unhealthy that more and more are needing treatment and 2) people are so fed up not getting a GP appointment that they go straight to A&E even for minor complaints knowing that they'll get seen at some point even if they have to wait.
Finally, and this baffled me for a long time, how is it right or safe for patients that nurses or any front line healthcare professionals work 10, 12 or even 16 hour shifts?
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Post by jackie on Apr 18, 2023 9:12:47 GMT 1
Dont know who these far right posters are! But all I see is rehearsed left wing posters with a party imposed view of UK politics and in this case the NHS. Shame on you for having your brains obliterated by left wing propaganda or bullsh*it in other words. What a histrionic response.
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Post by rabbit on Apr 18, 2023 11:10:31 GMT 1
Nurses and Junior doctors deserve more pay and I for one would be prepared to pay more tax. I read a report over the weekend that showed that French health workers are paid less than U.K. MTs we’re well below U.K. GPs pay.
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Post by exile on Apr 19, 2023 11:19:52 GMT 1
Finally, and this baffled me for a long time, how is it right or safe for patients that nurses or any front line healthcare professionals work 10, 12 or even 16 hour shifts? Becase the alternative is even more wrong and less safe - namely no nurse and no doctor.
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Post by tim17 on Apr 19, 2023 11:29:22 GMT 1
Finally, and this baffled me for a long time, how is it right or safe for patients that nurses or any front line healthcare professionals work 10, 12 or even 16 hour shifts? Becase the alternative is even more wrong and less safe - namely no nurse and no doctor. Or you employ more doctors and nurses.
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