|
Post by ForumUser2 on Apr 19, 2023 11:35:39 GMT 1
Becase the alternative is even more wrong and less safe - namely no nurse and no doctor. Or you employ more doctors and nurses. Indeed. People are falling over one another to work for such a generous, caring employer.
|
|
exile
Member
Massif Central
Posts: 2,670
|
Post by exile on Apr 19, 2023 12:14:38 GMT 1
They have tried that tim17 and failed miserably because the reward is not sufficient to put more in at the bottom than are leaving at the top and many points in between. This all comes down to insufficient pay and making the professionals feel unappreciated. Root cause? Government attitudes.
|
|
|
Post by ForumUser2 on Apr 19, 2023 15:58:54 GMT 1
It's also hard enough the recruit the best people into training which gives the lie to the knee-jerk demand for more doctors. You can have quality or quantity but you can't just train another 3000 doctors a year without accepting lower standards.
Remember those 20k extra nurses? Still waiting.
Better to retain what you have then pretend that you can just replace those that have had enough by new, experienced, quality staff from some magic clinician tree.
|
|
|
Post by ajm on Apr 19, 2023 16:47:20 GMT 1
Main problem was making nurses get a degree.
|
|
|
Post by mangetout on Apr 19, 2023 16:47:47 GMT 1
The ability to retain staff is a key measure of any organisation's success. Need I say more.
|
|
|
Post by jackie on Apr 19, 2023 17:20:03 GMT 1
Main problem was making nurses get a degree. Medicine has advanced a lot since the inception of the NHS so I guess the training has to reflect that?
|
|
|
Post by ForumUser2 on Apr 19, 2023 18:55:37 GMT 1
Main problem was making nurses get a degree. Amplify?
|
|
|
Post by ajm on Apr 19, 2023 19:43:00 GMT 1
Main problem was making nurses get a degree. Amplify? 4 years to get the degree plus a load of debt when all they want to do is look after people. I do have a bit of an insight into this s as my sister lectured at degree level
|
|
exile
Member
Massif Central
Posts: 2,670
|
Post by exile on Apr 19, 2023 21:21:49 GMT 1
Degree possible in Three years rather then four. But if people just want to "look after people", then I respectfully suggest a job as care assistant is a more likely vocational direction. Nursing today is a lot more than just that.
|
|
|
Post by ajm on Apr 20, 2023 11:05:55 GMT 1
Degree possible in Three years rather then four. But if people just want to "look after people", then I respectfully suggest a job as care assistant is a more likely vocational direction. Nursing today is a lot more than just that. That's very true Exile. My sister gained all her experience "on the job". She studied for her degree after she left nursing so that she could teach at uni.
|
|
|
Post by lindalovely on Apr 20, 2023 11:58:52 GMT 1
Saddling healthcare professionals with a massive debt at the end of their studies and then employing them on a low salary that means they never get out of that debt is certainly a problem. (The level of the training really reflects the demands of the job and given that nurses and allied health professionals need similar levels of knowledge to doctors now then you are never going to get all that 'on the job').
Up until relatively recently nursing and allied health professions could get a funded bursary to cover tuition, but that was done away with by the conservatives and now everyone leaves with a large debt unless you are from a rich family. The debt is a problem if you want to, for example. get a mortgage or consider having a family. Why not go to a higher paying country where you can earn more and thus pay it off quicker? (And yes. student loans are chased up and repayments collected even when someone moves overseas).
I was very lucky. When I trained as an occupational therapist I had a full grant which meant I finished with no debt. I still went off to work overseas for a few years, where I enjoyed a good salary and quality of life away from the UK of the 80s. My colleagues in Canada were much more into continued learning than in the UK at the time, so when I returned to the UK I enrolled on a part time degree course. Because the subject of my degree was related to my job, my employer funded the fees and I did the work in my own time. I had a similar deal when I later did my PhD. The fees were actually relatively low and what it meant was that for the period of my study I was committed to working for that employer. Later I went into education and taught. The course I taught on offered accelerated (2 year post grad) training for people who already had a degree in another subject. Later they offered 5 year apprenticeship degreed for students already working in assistant roles who wanted to train..so this idea that degrees are three years long and don't involve any practice is rather outdated.
Would I have even trained if the conditions then were as they are now? Probably not as the thought of all that debt would have terrified me, and even with all that help and a relatively senior position, I never felt in financially secure enough position to think of having a family in the days when that was still an option!
As for 'just training more'.. it's very difficult to significantly increase the numbers of students. Firstly you actually need the spaces to teach them, and all the Universities or colleges are crammed to bursting, then you need the teachers.. experienced professionals with additional qualifications.. There are usually people who are interested but training them takes time and money. You then need people working in practice prepared to offer the experiential education and mentorship. This role is not paid and is an additional expectation of any clinical job. With services getting more and more stretched and fewer staff around, finding adequate clinical placements is a big problem.
|
|
Nifty
Member
Posts: 4,881
|
Post by Nifty on Apr 21, 2023 20:02:32 GMT 1
35% is what junior doctors are asking. The nurses "only" asked for 19%. But tim17 is right. It is not about percentages. It is about the right amount of reward for the job. I find it amazing that the Tories, doyens of market forces, cannot grasp that if there is a major shortage of nurses and doctors and that if those already in the jobs are leaving in significant numbers, there is something seriously wrong with the rewards these people are receiving. I have used reward rather then pay or money, because part of the reward can be in other forms. Just having the feeling of having done a good job today can be part of the reward. Many medical professionals are saying they get that feeling less and less. I think that is all part of the ERG’s plan to privatise the NHS.
|
|