suein56
Member
Southern Morbihan 56 Brittany
Posts: 7,520
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Post by suein56 on Nov 12, 2021 21:03:06 GMT 1
That's an odd one, isn't it. I've always thought that anyone speaking English who says an hotel is being somewhat pretentious. The 'H' is pronounced so the indefinite article should be 'an'. Would there be an hurricane or an Humber Estuary? I've been called many things but pretentious is a first. Thank you! The way I speak English is probably down to my parents who drug me up proper fer to speak right. Have a good weekend. Here I must agree with ajm .. as I was brought up .. nay educated at school to say 'an hotel'. Tho 'hotel' was pronounced more in the French way, when I was young. Tho I do agree 'an hurricane' sounds idiotic .. Perhaps this quick précis might help .. However, words that start with the letter “H” do not follow the rule for consonants. For the letter “H”, the pronunciation dictates the indefinite article: Use “a” before words where you pronounce the letter “H” such as “a hat,” “a house” or “a happy cat.” Use “an” before words where you don’t pronounce the letter “H” such as “an hour,” or “an honourable man.”
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FFS
Member
As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
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Post by FFS on Nov 12, 2021 21:09:43 GMT 1
FFS posted : As for horrendous, 'an horrendous death toll', to me, sounds false. It's what I was taught .. it seems natural/automatic to me .. so that's what I would say, even today when anything seems to go in speech. Don't mind me, I was brought up and educated in Australia, so I've got no bloody idea, Sheila! That said, I can't think, off the top of my head, of any English word beginning with 'h' in front of which I would use 'an'; for me, if the 'h' is aspirated/pronounced, it's 'a'.
Edit: Just seen suein56's post, agree with 'hour' and 'honourable', but that rule rules out 'an horrendous' - sorry.
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exile
Member
Massif Central
Posts: 2,686
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Post by exile on Nov 12, 2021 21:26:58 GMT 1
Strangely elsewhere I have posted in the last 24 hours about an horrendous death toll. Try saying that out loud as a horrendous death toll. It comes out as a staccato blast. I see the insertion of an "n" as a mechanism for allowing the spoken language to flow in much the same way as in French a "t" is inserted in phrases such as "a-t-elle ..." Oh and as already stated no way does an umlauted "u" equate to "yu" phonetically in German. Not saying you're wrong, exile and ForumUser2 , but I was relying on the German I learnt when young and less wise, as well as Wiktionary: As for horrendous, 'an horrendous death toll', to me, sounds false. Did you by any chance click on the rhymes link for -uːbə(ɹ)? It says it rhymes with:
goober
Gruber
tuber
uber
Kuber If you can get a "Yu" sound into any of those you are a better man than me Gunga.
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rhymes:English/u%CB%90b%C9%99(%C9%B9)
Oh and 19 years working for a German company of which 17 were in Germany and I hope I know now how to pronounce an umlauted u.
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FFS
Member
As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
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Post by FFS on Nov 12, 2021 22:14:01 GMT 1
Not saying you're wrong, exile and ForumUser2 , but I was relying on the German I learnt when young and less wise, as well as Wiktionary: As for horrendous, 'an horrendous death toll', to me, sounds false. Did you by any chance click on the rhymes link for -uːbə(ɹ)? It says it rhymes with:
goober
Gruber
tuber
uber
Kuber If you can get a "Yu" sound into any of those you are a better man than me Gunga.
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rhymes:English/u%CB%90b%C9%99(%C9%B9)
Oh and 19 years working for a German company of which 17 were in Germany and I hope I know now how to pronounce an umlauted u. If you want to say 'tuber' like an American, feel free, but I pronounce it a bit like the instrument.
How do you pronounce Bühne, Mühle, and Üben, then?
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exile
Member
Massif Central
Posts: 2,686
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Post by exile on Nov 12, 2021 22:32:37 GMT 1
Booene Mooele Ooben
As a non linguist expert closest I can get but none exactly correct.
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FFS
Member
As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
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Post by FFS on Nov 12, 2021 22:38:12 GMT 1
Booene Mooele Ooben As a non linguist expert closest I can get but none exactly correct. It seems that in some areas of Germany they may be pronounced to rhyme with dune, yule, and Cuban.
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exile
Member
Massif Central
Posts: 2,686
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Post by exile on Nov 12, 2021 23:32:27 GMT 1
Not in, from personal experience Rheinland Pfalz Nordrheinwaestfalien - which probably covers all states where Platdeutsch is spoken - but in fairness probably comes closest to your idea of an umlauted u. Bayern Saxen Hessen Badenwuertenburg - note pronounced Baden Woorten burg and not Baden Wyurten burg
nor Saxenanhalt - where my boss came from
nor Austria - Wien and Innsbruck and just over the border from Burghausen
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exile
Member
Massif Central
Posts: 2,686
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Post by exile on Nov 13, 2021 1:21:42 GMT 1
Final thoughts on this for tonight.
German unlike French and English is a very phonetic language. What you see written is what you will hear spoken. Vowels are very short and open.
a is pronounced as in rat and not as a southerner might say with bath (barth - as I am constantly reminded by my northern wife.)
The umlaut creates a diphthong. In written German for all those who have no easy access to umlauted characters, adding an "e" after the vowel that should be umlauted is the standard way of writing and fully accepted.
So für can be written fuer and that is how it is pronounced.
So the easy answer to all of your examples of umlauted words is to add an e after the vowel and say what you see. No "y"s either before of after.
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Post by Polarengineer on Nov 13, 2021 7:25:45 GMT 1
Getting back to the OP, I can't recommend an phone or an tablet and definitley not an PC.
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Post by Seaboots on Nov 13, 2021 8:35:27 GMT 1
FFS posted : As for horrendous, 'an horrendous death toll', to me, sounds false. It's what I was taught .. it seems natural/automatic to me .. so that's what I would say, even today when anything seems to go in speech. Yes, an horrendous is what I was taught too.
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FFS
Member
As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
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Post by FFS on Nov 13, 2021 10:45:32 GMT 1
FFS posted : As for horrendous, 'an horrendous death toll', to me, sounds false. It's what I was taught .. it seems natural/automatic to me .. so that's what I would say, even today when anything seems to go in speech. Yes, an horrendous is what I was taught too. Do you say 'an horrible accident' or 'an horror movie'?
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Aardvark
Non-gamer
Living in soggy 22 and still wondering what's going on.
Posts: 2,172
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Post by Aardvark on Nov 13, 2021 11:04:50 GMT 1
Is there nothing that can't start an argument these days?
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FFS
Member
As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
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Post by FFS on Nov 13, 2021 11:32:09 GMT 1
The above posts aren't arguments, they're differences of opinion.
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Post by ForumUser2 on Nov 13, 2021 12:39:21 GMT 1
The above posts aren't arguments, they're differences of opinion. No they aren't.
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Post by Seaboots on Nov 13, 2021 12:44:43 GMT 1
Yes they are.
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