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Cave Roof
Mar 27, 2022 19:56:29 GMT 1
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Post by chrisell on Mar 27, 2022 19:56:29 GMT 1
So we have a barn / farmhouse combination - not the main house. Am planning on a basic tart up of the house bit - but the first task is fixing the "cave" that's attached.
It's a ground floor cellar .... Basically built into the slope behind the house but it's on the same level as the main room. At the moment it's a waterfall when it rains .... Not a bit damp ... Not the odd drip full blown waterfall.
So obviously dig out - remove tree roots - and then what. I can see the point of lime indoors - but it ain't breathing under a couple of foot of earth outdoors so I'm thinking waterproof concrete to fix the stone outside that will be under ground. I'm assuming best solution is fix the pointing - drop a rubber membrane in and treat it as green roof. Possibly lay a slab over it to reinforce if needed.
I can't see another way of doing it on the cheap.Bar the big fireplace the whole building is agricultural shall we say so it's basic rock and mortar construction.
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exile
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Post by exile on Mar 27, 2022 20:38:15 GMT 1
It sounds as if you have a similar situation to ourselves - a wet weather spring that then flows through the cave.
In our case it runs very rarely and we live with it - I have only seen it running perhaps half a dozen times in 18 years.
Your problem sounds much more severe.
You have to treat this at source (pun not intended). So you have to intercept the water outside of the building. This involves digging a trench down to the level where the water ingresses ( and better even deeper) Insert a French drain - a porous plastic drain tube (actually a tube with holes in it to allow water to enter), surrounded by coarse aggregate. The water enters the aggregate and then flows into the pipe and is drained away.
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Deleted
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Cave Roof
Mar 27, 2022 21:21:20 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2022 21:21:20 GMT 1
Would that solution work if it's caused by a rise in the ground water level after a lot of rain.
I have no easy solution.
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exile
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Post by exile on Mar 27, 2022 21:34:56 GMT 1
The OP said it is built on a slope so you should be able to drain the water away. Basic ground water problems on a flat site would require another solution. However very similar - stop the water getting to the building's walls. In that case it would be drainage ditches around the perimeter of the property.
If there is any slope whatsoever on the ground, the most important drain/ditch is normally that at the highest point - which prevents water from entering the site.
Edit: by property I meant land not the building itself.
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Cave Roof
Mar 27, 2022 21:39:24 GMT 1
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Post by chrisell on Mar 27, 2022 21:39:24 GMT 1
It's unlikely to be a spring - it's a leaking roof sat under a few feet of earth - it's either 300 years of time or 300 years and tree roots. It rains it pours it's a pretty direct - it's probably been uninhabited for 100 years so
And a French drain ain't really going to work a metre underground. It'll be damp whatever I do - or what I can be bothered to do - so it's just put it back as built with some modern touches - like membranes/liners
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exile
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Post by exile on Mar 27, 2022 21:46:54 GMT 1
A roof under the ground is not a roof in any building definition I have found except in a cave. I think you need to explain further. By roof do you mean a ceiling?
A French drain will work 20m underground provided it has somewhere to drain to.
I think we need to understand whether the water is coming in through the walls or the ceiling of your cave.
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Cave Roof
Mar 27, 2022 21:47:04 GMT 1
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Post by chrisell on Mar 27, 2022 21:47:04 GMT 1
The OP said it is built on a slope so you should be able to drain the water away. Basic ground water problems on a flat site would require another solution. However very similar - stop the water getting to the building's walls. In that case it would be drainage ditches around the perimeter of the property. If there is any slope whatsoever on the ground, the most important drain/ditch is normally that at the highest point - which prevents water from entering the site. Edit: by property I meant land not the building itself. The low point is the house ......the cave sits against the house on the high side hence why it's underground. Simple is required and it's survived this far so it doesn't need engineering it needs the leak fixing .. at the moment the ceiling is the quickest way down - fix that and water goes wherever it's always gone.. |
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exile
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Post by exile on Mar 27, 2022 21:51:07 GMT 1
I think some sort of plan/diagram would be helpful because so far I am struggling to visualise what is going on. Rough sketches should do.
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Cave Roof
Mar 27, 2022 22:33:26 GMT 1
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Post by chrisell on Mar 27, 2022 22:33:26 GMT 1
Trying to keep this simple - ignore context.
I understand why you use lime mortar on old buildings. Indeed on the interior faces I will use lime mortar.
However once the stonework is underground literally with earth on top surely modern cement mortar with waterproofing added would be better. Nothings breathing underneath earth so modern mortar is better for the specific job?
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Post by pcpa on Mar 27, 2022 22:48:15 GMT 1
I have nothing to add to what has already been said other than you speak of fixing a leak indicating that you consider in the past no water has been able to penetrate, do you know that for sure or is that an assumption? If it has indeed been dry for several hundred years then I would not reinvent the wheel, clearly someone knew what they were doing, you should dig down to see how it was sealed and find where that sealing has been breached and repair it using the same method. From the sound of it I would speculate that it has never been dry and never could be, the only way to make a cellar dry that was never intended to be is tanking, gulleys and pumps but doing that with an underground ceiling adds a whole new level of complication. A roof under the ground is not a roof in any building definition I have found except in a cave. I think you need to explain further. By roof do you mean a ceiling? You saved me from saying the same! |
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Cave Roof
Mar 28, 2022 10:33:42 GMT 1
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Post by landmannnn on Mar 28, 2022 10:33:42 GMT 1
So we have a barn / farmhouse combination - not the main house. Am planning on a basic tart up of the house bit - but the first task is fixing the "cave" that's attached. It's a ground floor cellar .... Basically built into the slope behind the house but it's on the same level as the main room. At the moment it's a waterfall when it rains .... Not a bit damp ... Not the odd drip full blown waterfall. So obviously dig out - remove tree roots - and then what. I can see the point of lime indoors - but it ain't breathing under a couple of foot of earth outdoors so I'm thinking waterproof concrete to fix the stone outside that will be under ground. I'm assuming best solution is fix the pointing - drop a rubber membrane in and treat it as green roof. Possibly lay a slab over it to reinforce if needed. I can't see another way of doing it on the cheap.Bar the big fireplace the whole building is agricultural shall we say so it's basic rock and mortar construction. So effectively we are talking about a subterranean building with a stone ceiling and a soil roof? Your plan sounds sensible, although you might have to dig off several tonnes of soil... It might be easier to dig a trench to meet the tops of the walls and backfill will concrete. In any case you will need to tank the cave walls. |
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