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Post by jardiniere on May 16, 2023 9:19:37 GMT 1
I considered myself very fortunate when buying this house to have gas central heating at the flick of a switch but the system seems quite old, 2 of the 6 radiators are permanently on and at the time of the annual reckoning I owed 600€. Heat pumps was something I thought of having installed at some point but now thinking sooner rather than later. Two-bedroom well-insulated house. Half is stone and the other half constructed in the 80s. Does the installation involve huge disruption? Is it worth it? I know there are subsidies but I believe it would still involve a hefty outlay. Forgot to say the 2 biggest rooms have very high ceilings.
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Post by Polarengineer on May 16, 2023 12:59:47 GMT 1
Firstly, if it aint broke, I would be thinking twice to change. Check your current system and see what the kW power is in terms of heating. A heat pump will consume 1/4 of this power in electrical energy, this will help estimate the cost anually. A heat pump (if air to water) will require an outdoor heat exchanger (car radiator type) with a fan (possible noise, and holes through the walls for the pipes). Indoors, the heat pump could require a buffer tank of hot water (this will avoid frequent stopping and starting) this may be 150 to 200 litre. This could be connected to your existing radiators and also your hot water system, depending on the heat pump capabiliy for higher temperatures. Current offers for these systems seem to be rip offs regarding cost just like solar panel installations. The whole thing is a bit complex and if there is a power cut, you go cold whereas with a gas system, it could be kept going with a very small generator.
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Post by lapourtaider on May 16, 2023 15:32:13 GMT 1
We have literally just had one installed to replace the oil fired boiler. I can't say yet whether it's worth it or not as although installed (finished Friday) it is not yet set to work (Panasonic themselves come and do that).
Very little disruption to you if your existing installation is up to it. We have grand old cast iron radiators which are supposedly perfect for a heat pump, time will tell on that one. In total we will have 8000€ (IIRC)in subsidies from two different sources for the HP. We are also installing a Poële as well, for which there are also subsidies, and that will be our back up in case of power cuts as well as providing what I like to think of as proper heat and a beautiful focal point.
So yes, there is a large initial outlay, but personally I think that heating that burns a finite resource is not the way ahead.
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exile
Member
Massif Central
Posts: 2,765
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Post by exile on May 16, 2023 15:47:58 GMT 1
The standard advice at the moment seems to be that unless your house is very well insulated, a heat pump will not be up to the job in the coldest periods. You say it is but if part of the house is stone, what insulation do you have in that part. Stone is frequently thought to be a good insulator - mostly it isn't. In fact often quite the reverse. How draughtproof is the property?
Regarding the current set up, have you considered having thermostatic valves fitted to the two radiators that are permanently on? You should do this anyway irrespective of the heat source. It is a bit strange that 4 of the 6 seem to be fitted but not the other two - unless there was previously a secondary heat source from something like a wood burner with a back boiler - in which case these would have perhaps been used as ballast for excess heat. In that case it would be necessary that they remained on.
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Post by chrisell on May 16, 2023 19:16:17 GMT 1
The simple answer is heat pumps generally use lower temps for your heating which works fine if your well insulated and works even better with underfloor heating or over sized rads. How old is your gas boiler? Modern condensing gas boilers are very good at being boilers. It might be worth checking if there are grants for a modern gas boiler.
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Post by lapourtaider on May 16, 2023 20:23:38 GMT 1
It might be worth checking if there are grants for a modern gas boiler. There aren't.
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Post by spectrum on May 17, 2023 7:21:46 GMT 1
As one who lives in a purely Heat pump house Air/Water allow me to explain, to be efficient your house needs to be very well insulated 400mm in ceiling 150mm in walls and we have 200 in the floor but we have UFH your rads at the moment will be running at about 80C, heat pumps kick out up to 50C so the rule of thumb is that you need a bigger surface area to lift the temp up, so modern and larger rads, all pipe runs well insulated, the external unit does make some noise its a big fan after all pushing a lot of air about, the hole needed in the wall is about fist sized, the internal "Boiler" also make a bit of noise they have electro valves, that open and close, PE is correct in that the SORPS is about 1 to 4 ratio, so for 1Kwt of electricity used you get 4Kwt of energy. Another alternative is a reversable Air con system could be easier to install still need unit outside and units inside, many are available with wall mounted indoor units either high up near the ceiling or down near the floor like a conventional rad, also ceiling flush mounted, but these take more fitting, another advantage is cooling in the summer, this is the type that we have had fitted in the house, in our case mainly for summer use but also as a back up for the UFH we keep the temp at 23C all winter, because of the mass in the floor after been off for 16hrs the temp had only dropped by 3C. You could run all of them off a genny but they are compressors so their start up amperage is high, so probably not economical.
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Nifty
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Posts: 5,359
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Post by Nifty on May 17, 2023 8:22:41 GMT 1
It might be worth checking if there are grants for a modern gas boiler. There aren't. That is a shame. We have an gas boiler, it is old. I am not sure how old. Every time you use the hot tap the boiler fires up and continues to heat the water after you have enough. The water in the boiler goes cold and is wasted. Money for nothing. So much for the drive for energy efficiency. More like the drive for overconsumption.
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Post by jardiniere on May 17, 2023 9:12:44 GMT 1
Firstly, if it aint broke, I would be thinking twice to change. In view of all the info above, for which I thank you, think I'll stick with what I have but put thermostatic valves on one of the 2 radiators. Apparently there should always be one radiator which is permanently on? Plus I'll ask about the age of the boiler next annual check-up. It is very noisy and like Nifty's it fires up every time I turn the hot water tap on. About 1.5 litres of cold water before it heats up. This goes into bottles for the garden so isn't wasted but is a nuisance.
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Post by jardiniere on May 17, 2023 9:20:56 GMT 1
Plus I'll ask about the age of the boiler next annual check-up. It is very noisy and like Nifty's it fires up every time I turn the hot water tap on. On second thoughts I just looked at the cost of condensing gas boilers and decided I'll make do!
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Post by jardiniere on Jun 3, 2024 10:18:46 GMT 1
On second thoughts I just looked at the cost of condensing gas boilers and decided I'll make do! Well, the moment has come. Boiler kaput, 18 years old. The chauffagiste has fixed it so I can still have hot water but don't know how long this will last. This morning he brought a devis for nearly 3 and a half thousand euros for a condensing gas boiler. I decided against heat pump but still wondering about solar panels for hot water. Would that be pointless if I replaced the boiler? I'd like to do something towards being greener. Probable won't see a return on the investment in my lifetime but there's the next generation to think about. I'm always a bit nervous about being taken advantage of by artisans, being a woman on her own and a foreigner to boot! Last week the chauffagiste said if we were to replace the existing boiler with the same brand, that would be cheaper in labour costs as all the pipework would be the same so could be fitted in a morning. The devis quotes 500€ for labour which is a day's work (I did query it) so I'm already having doubts. Any advice, please?
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Post by jeliecrack on Jun 3, 2024 11:09:17 GMT 1
Pay for a new boiler it will be cheaper long term,it will be easier to use because you know how the system works already IMO of course.500€ is about right for a days work its around 65 € an hour that will include fuel costs for getting to the job etc etc.
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Post by Polarengineer on Jun 3, 2024 11:44:39 GMT 1
what went wrong with the existing unit, what repair was made. Just because it is an old unit does not mean it will always break down. your only problem is if you cannot get spare parts and the general efficiency compared to the latest top of the range replacements. Your gas consumption will be higher and the cost of gas may go up to a level where economics kick into the equation. In the meantime, stay friends with your plumber and run the unit as you have always done. If you are concerned about the environmental impact, plant 3 trees every year. ( you can go into the woods and plant a sapling, it does not need to be your land, the landowner should not complain)
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Post by jardiniere on Jun 3, 2024 13:31:00 GMT 1
500€ is about right for a days work its around 65 € an hour that will include fuel costs for getting to the job etc etc Yes, but it's because he said last week that if I replaced with the same brand, Saunier Duval, the labour costs would be less as the pipework remains the same so could be done in a morning. Now the devis states 500€ for a day's labour.
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Post by jeliecrack on Jun 3, 2024 14:33:22 GMT 1
You will always be charged for a day, because thats how he makes his money, if he falls on a problem he will be having to stay longer and if something isn't in stock he has to come back but your devis won't ,or shouldn't, change.
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