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Post by cernunnos on Feb 5, 2024 10:06:42 GMT 1
We wait to see what all the protesting farmers have achieved , except for a lot of unhappy commuters and damage to road surfaces. The "none-bio " have achieved the right to spray pesticides a little longer and the partial reimbursement of the TVA on GNR for those that can negotiate the government website?
The government makes many promises, but few are kept.
The actual problem lies with the profit margins of the wholesalers which in turn need to make money for their share holders !
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Post by lindalovely on Feb 5, 2024 11:08:59 GMT 1
I think there are several things that complicate the situation. Firstly late December to mid Feb there isn't as much to do in the fields, so if you are going to have a protest that is the time to do it. Come mid Feb, fields have to be sown and sileage needs to be cut, so it's back to work.
On the whole I think the farmers maintained a great deal of public support. Maybe if it had dragged on for longer they wouldn't have done so. There is a lot of noise about supporting 'our farmers' and 'buy French', but despite what the farmers say I really don't think that is the problem. I look at my weekly shopping basket.. I don't buy beef, lamb or pork at all and if I did I would buy local (but then I live in a rural area where there is plenty of choice to buy direct). I buy chicken but all the chicken for sale in the supermarkets where I go is labelled as French. I assume also that French chicken is also sold in other EU countries, where despite what the farmers say, similar abysmal welfare standards are observed. The fruit and veg for sale in the supermarkets is mostly French when it is a product they grow here. I have never seen French avocados, bananas or oranges. However most things that grow well in France also grow well in my vegetable garden, so, for example, I am still eating pumpkin, potatoes and tomato sauce from the garden. If I buy wine I buy French wine, but I drink far less than I used to and far less red wine than before. Although I am not typical of French diners my tastes are not that unusual. The problem I think is that the market and people's tastes are changing and not all farmers are able to embrace that change and adapt. Some have.. but not all.
On the whole farming was seen as a manual job rather than an enterprise and many of the older farmers did not get the business training they need to run successfully these days. You see a real difference with some of the younger farmers coming out of college, who are much more enterprising.
I thought the government actually responded to the demands of the farmers rather well.. of course many people were still unhappy because the things they were asking for are not the cause of their problems but they are unable to vocalise that into demands that the government can take responsibility for, other than to repeat the slogans put out by the RN. Slogans fire up the masses but they don't solve the problem. For a start without migrant labour no one this way would be able to harvest their grapes! I saw an interview last night with the RN spokesperson. A glamorous young blonde who didn't look like she would know one end of a tractor from another. She was struggling to come up with criticisms of Attal apart from saying that the government won't do what they said. No criticisms of the actual offer.
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exile
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Massif Central
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Post by exile on Feb 5, 2024 11:30:39 GMT 1
I broadly agree but a few corrections of fact: I think there are several things that complicate the situation. Firstly late December to mid Feb there isn't as much to do in the fields 1, so if you are going to have a protest that is the time to do it. Come mid Feb, fields have to be sown and sileage needs to be cut, so it's back to work. On the whole I think the farmers maintained a great deal of public support. Maybe if it had dragged on for longer they wouldn't have done so. There is a lot of noise about supporting 'our farmers' and 'buy French', but despite what the farmers say I really don't think that is the problem. I look at my weekly shopping basket.. I don't buy beef, lamb or pork at all and if I did I would buy local (but then I live in a rural area where there is plenty of choice to buy direct). I buy chicken but all the chicken for sale in the supermarkets where I go is labelled as French. I assume also that French chicken is also sold in other EU countries, where despite what the farmers say, similar abysmal welfare standards are observed. The fruit and veg for sale in the supermarkets is mostly French when it is a product they grow here. I have never seen French avocados 2, bananas 3 or oranges 4. However most things that grow well in France also grow well in my vegetable garden, so, for example, I am still eating pumpkin, potatoes and tomato sauce from the garden. If I buy wine I buy French wine, but I drink far less than I used to and far less red wine than before. Although I am not typical of French diners my tastes are not that unusual. The problem I think is that the market and people's tastes are changing and not all farmers are able to embrace that change and adapt. Some have.. but not all. On the whole farming was seen as a manual job rather than an enterprise and many of the older farmers did not get the business training they need to run successfully these days. You see a real difference with some of the younger farmers coming out of college, who are much more enterprising. I thought the government actually responded to the demands of the farmers rather well.. of course many people were still unhappy because the things they were asking for are not the cause of their problems but they are unable to vocalise that into demands that the government can take responsibility for, other than to repeat the slogans put out by the RN. Slogans fire up the masses but they don't solve the problem. For a start without migrant labour no one this way would be able to harvest their grapes! I saw an interview last night with the RN spokesperson. A glamorous young blonde who didn't look like she would know one end of a tractor from another. She was struggling to come up with criticisms of Attal apart from saying that the government won't do what they said. No criticisms of the actual offer. 1; True for arable farmers but those with beasts have a 365 -366 this year - job. 2; Lots grown in the Ardèche and probably elsewhere but we buy locally when possible so I don't know. 3; French Guyana, Martinique - although I will accept there is often no choice and it is frequently from places like Cote d'Ivoire 4; Not oranges as such but plenty of Corsican Mandarins, Clementines etc.. We can be more flexible than perhaps we are and pay a bit more for more French produce.
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Post by jeliecrack on Feb 5, 2024 11:35:49 GMT 1
Isn't the problem really about the international agroalimentaire companies being able to hold governments to ransom over what is sold and at what price? My view is that nothing has been gained apart from tinkering at the edges.
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Post by lindalovely on Feb 5, 2024 11:55:08 GMT 1
Isn't the problem really about the international agroalimentaire companies being able to hold governments to ransom over what is sold and at what price? My view is that nothing has been gained apart from tinkering at the edges. That might be part of it but I am not sure what any government can do on it's own about that. One of our neighbours wanted to install a chicken farm in the village. There were a lot of complaints about where he wanted to do it so we all got to see the proposal and at a business level for the farmer it seemed absolutely shocking. Terres de Sud lent the farmer an absurd sum of money to build and install the sheds. The farmer had to agree to buy the chickens from them and then sell them on to them when 'grown'. Managing the sheds was a twice daily job (and these are label rouge chickens so not the worst conditions you will find). The most he could expect to make on this was about 5000euros per year and there was still the loan to pay back. After a few years they will lend him even more money to install climate control and heating so he can have chickens all year round. The whole thing seemed to suit no one except Terres de Sud, who were guaranteed to make money one way or another. He went ahead with it, but it seemed madness.. A smaller enterprise selling direct to the consumer would surely have given him more control over his future. By contrast our local viticulteur, who produces fantastic wine but has no idea how to market it.. has joined forces with his son to run a complete bio vineyard and also to raise sheep, which graze in the wines, providing fertilizer and avoiding the need for weeding. He has expanded his range to include a Rose and white and has started selling direct in the market. The sheep are sold via an intermediary but he is also beginning to sell direct as well. As an adjunt..he is featuring on this seasons 'L'amour est dans le Pre' or 'The farmer wants a wife', although in his case he is searching for a man. The episode was very touching. He was married and has 4 children, but always knew he was gay and supressed it to avoid hurting his parents, and the social pressures of 'coming out' in a very rural community were just too much to deal with when he was younger.
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Nifty
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Post by Nifty on Feb 5, 2024 12:00:46 GMT 1
‘ That might be part of it but I am not sure what any government can do on its own about that.’
There is no such government that holds all the cards. They all have split packs and use double dealing.
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Nifty
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Post by Nifty on Feb 5, 2024 12:07:21 GMT 1
Mentioning double dealing. We visited a friend in Ariege last year. Next door to him is a poultry farm that seems to be under the locally produced bio umbrella. My friend told me that the farm gets late night or very early morning deliveries of poultry from Poland to sell on. What can one read into that without seeing the paperwork?
i think that everyone is fiddling while Rome burns.
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Post by cernunnos on Feb 5, 2024 13:30:59 GMT 1
One of our neighbours wanted to install a chicken farm in the village. There were a lot of complaints about where he wanted to do it so we all got to see the proposal and at a business level for the farmer it seemed absolutely shocking. Terres de Sud lent the farmer an absurd sum of money to build and install the sheds. The farmer had to agree to buy the chickens from them and then sell them on to them when 'grown'. Managing the sheds was a twice daily job (and these are label rouge chickens so not the worst conditions you will find). The most he could expect to make on this was about 5000euros per year and there was still the loan to pay back. After a few years they will lend him even more money to install climate control and heating so he can have chickens all year round. The whole thing seemed to suit no one except Terres de Sud, who were guaranteed to make money one way or another. He went ahead with it, but it seemed madness.. A smaller enterprise selling direct to the consumer would surely have given him more control over his future.\
Yes, I have had various proposals from "Bio" chicken food companies, but as noted above , all you are doing is going to work for the feed company,work all hours and earn very little .
The latest " mode" in sheep farming is mixing with vineyards or orchards , calling it Agroforestry and giving start up subsidies. Only problem is that most fruit and wine growers know very little about sheep, so don't realise how much work is involved.
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Post by cernunnos on Feb 5, 2024 13:49:55 GMT 1
Just as an aside . I sat down and calculated how much I would need to sell my lamb at, directly, to receive the same amount as I get from the cooperative. I get on average €150 (€7/kilo) from the cooperative. To cover all the costs ( slaughter,boucherie, transport) I would need to sell the lamb at €17.5/kilo plus two half days for transport. So it is a lot easier to sell to the coop!
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Post by woolybanana on Feb 5, 2024 14:16:12 GMT 1
The overlooked problem is that 60% of farms are still family owned and run, are small and only economic if subsidised; they are part of an antique, sloppy middle class sentiment about the land and the heroic working peasant, fuelled by the fact that many now middle class French families have grandparents who lived off the land. That world is disappearing fast and will only remain in a very small number of very specialist operations. Many fewer farms are inherited these days as the kids do not want the sheer isolated drudgery of that kind of farming, the hours, the debts, the sheer physical pain and stress…… It is like the old, very old one man band mines which were operated, very often by one person with all the inherent problems and dangers. We should be thankful that they have disappeared, at least in the West. That being said, round here the farms are prosperous and expanding, producing spuds, and other root crops plus a load of livestock indoors. My two closest farms have just put up huge new sheds to expand livestock. But even though they are well off, they still do other stuff like gites, frites etc. Not static these folk, eyes always open to opportunities. Small exploitations have to go and farming has to be seen as an industry, not as a romantic enterprise.
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Post by woolybanana on Feb 5, 2024 14:18:07 GMT 1
Just as an aside . I sat down and calculated how much I would need to sell my lamb at, directly, to receive the same amount as I get from the cooperative. I get on average €150 (€7/kilo) from the cooperative. To cover all the costs ( slaughter,boucherie, transport) I would need to sell the lamb at €17.5/kilo plus two half days for transport. So it is a lot easier to sell to the coop! My guess is that the supermarkets are selling at about €14 or more a kilo?
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Post by lindalovely on Feb 5, 2024 14:18:47 GMT 1
Next door to him is a poultry farm that seems to be under the locally produced bio umbrella. My friend told me that the farm gets late night or very early morning deliveries of poultry from Poland to sell on. What can one read into that without seeing the paperwork? What I think a lot of people don't realise is that 'chicken farming' is really just chicken fattening. The chickens are transported to the 'farm' at a certain age, fed and grown and then transported on to be 'processed'. So it is perfectly possible and perfectly legal that the young chicks are supplied from somewhere such as Poland, as long as they are certified organic. I think I am right in saying that as long as they are grown in France they can be certified as 'French'. Which is why for many farmers such as my chicken farming neighbour, leaving the EU would be even more of a disaster for them as without a source of chicks there would be even less profit for him. Of course he is pro the RN and frexit.
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Post by lindalovely on Feb 5, 2024 14:29:03 GMT 1
Small exploitations have to go and farming has to be seen as an industry, not as a romantic enterprise. I think there is room for small exploitations but they need to be run more like small businesses, with direct sales and local markets or a good local cooperative. There is a big wine producer here (Berticott). They have bought up many of the wines in the Lot et Garonne and produce and market their own wines in various guises. I think the wine is average and don't buy it anymore but they make a living supplying the supermarkets. Our local viticulteur actually gets his wine made for him in the Vats at the local cooperative, where he gets a shiny new stainless steel vat and the expertise of the local winemaker. It is a compromise that makes sense, since he cannot afford to equip his Chai to modern standards. Lamb at Auchan (non bio) 18.95 kg
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Post by woolybanana on Feb 5, 2024 14:52:34 GMT 1
Agreed, LL but one of the funds set up now is designed to grub up 12.5% of the total vine acreage as folk dont drink wine like they used to. But there is always going to be a place for quality produce marketed and sold well. I wonder how many farmers will quit in the next ten years.
Price of lamb seems steep. Round here they dont sell a lot as it is not a rich area and folk cant afford it. That being said when NZ lamb legs appear once or twice a year they are snapped up as very well priced.
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mysty
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Post by mysty on Feb 5, 2024 14:56:25 GMT 1
One of our neighbours wanted to install a chicken farm in the village. There were a lot of complaints about where he wanted to do it so we all got to see the proposal and at a business level for the farmer it seemed absolutely shocking. Terres de Sud lent the farmer an absurd sum of money to build and install the sheds. The farmer had to agree to buy the chickens from them and then sell them on to them when 'grown'. Managing the sheds was a twice daily job (and these are label rouge chickens so not the worst conditions you will find). The most he could expect to make on this was about 5000euros per year and there was still the loan to pay back. After a few years they will lend him even more money to install climate control and heating so he can have chickens all year round. The whole thing seemed to suit no one except Terres de Sud, who were guaranteed to make money one way or another. He went ahead with it, but it seemed madness.. A smaller enterprise selling direct to the consumer would surely have given him more control over his future.\ Yes, I have had various proposals from "Bio" chicken food companies, but as noted above , all you are doing is going to work for the feed company,work all hours and earn very little . The latest " mode" in sheep farming is mixing with vineyards or orchards , calling it Agroforestry and giving start up subsidies. Only problem is that most fruit and wine growers know very little about sheep, so don't realise how much work is involved. 5000 a year would be a tad difficult to live on and paying the costs of running a farm. He would make more money buying a digger and fitting drainage systems. People are paying 8000/10000 for a complete new system or even working TP. I would have thought all farmers could work a digger.
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