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Post by helenof on Aug 11, 2021 20:42:37 GMT 1
In a couple of weeks we should get ownership of our new house in Creuse. The property includes two meadows on the opposite side of the road, that we are not planning to use - in any case not for the first few years. A local farmer has already let know that he is willing to mow the grass for us. The direct neighbour remarked (to the present owner) that we should realise that the farmer is not as poor as he would like to appear. So already, before even owning the place we are involved in local politics. 
If we let the Farmer mow, does he eventually get any rights to mowing the land? We could also rent the land out via SAFER, but are we then allowed access to the meadows. That could be important, because there is a second small house, that we intend to restore as a cottage for my sister. To make a fosse septique for that cottage, we would have to run the drain pipe under the road into the nearest meadow and place the fosse there.
I also recently saw an advert on a Facebook group in our region for hay bales at 25 euro a piece!!!!!! So the farmer would certainly be getting a good bargain, even if he is sparing us the hassle of mowing.
What arrangements are most common and what pitfalls should we beware of???
All advice appreciated,
Helen
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2021 20:56:31 GMT 1
wow - I think you ae very wise to seek advice.
Hopefully more knowledgeable people on here will be more knowledgeable than I.
However, your Notaire should (?) be independent so ask him to agree that the contract is acceptable.
Get it on paper!
NB There aint such a thing as a poor farmer!!!
NB2 the land next to us is left fallow and they will not sell - the laws of ownership are bizarre - go with the local laws.
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exile
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Massif Central
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Post by exile on Aug 11, 2021 21:29:21 GMT 1
It certainly used to be the case that accepting any form of payment (including payment in kind - so even a thank you bottle of wine) for hay cutting gave the farmer some rights over the land and its use and any agreement could only be cancelled once in quite a number of years - I have 7 or maybe 9 years in mind but I could certainly be wrong.
I would certainly book an appointment with the notaire.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2021 21:46:41 GMT 1
Definitely get authoritative information on your position should you let the farmer use your land for any reason. There are many traps for the unwary when land use is granted. By mowing, making hay then using it or selling it could the farmer argue that he is using the land commercially? I don't know either but the notaire will/should.
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Post by houpla on Aug 12, 2021 7:10:51 GMT 1
The legal agreement that would cover this is called a bail rural (rural lease). Definitely get everything down in writing.
One thing that's puzzling me....if you need to construct a fosse toutes eaux for the cottage, why would you be running a pipe under the road? Either your commune has (or is planning) mains drainage, or it hasn't. A fosse is autonomous. Or is it more a case of running a pipe from the new filter bed to join an existing run-off pipe?
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Aardvark
Non-gamer
Living in soggy 22 and still wondering what's going on.
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Post by Aardvark on Aug 12, 2021 9:39:03 GMT 1
I became aware of this sort of situation many years ago and read many explanations posted online. I copied and saved one of them and although it didn't quote the source it seemed to be the bottom line.
"If you let a farmer use your land you may well be open to him claiming you've effectively established un Bail Rural - it depends how long he's had use of it, and how much if anything he's paid for it (whether in cash or kind). It's up to him to prove that he's made regular payments - that can be showing receipts, or simply coming up with witnesses who'll swear they've seen the rent being handed over. If a Bail has been established by default it normally lasts 9 years and is automatically renewed, and that can cause all sorts of problems, especially if you decide to sell your property - the farmer will have automatic first right to buy the bits of land he's been using, or will still have the rights to use it after the sale (effectively a sitting tenant). He also gains all sorts of rights over what else he can do with the land - he may have the right to fell your trees, for example! You will have difficulty backing out of a Bail once established - unless you want to reclaim the land for the use of your children, but you'll have to prove they're actually going to use it for agriculture."
By all means take proper legal advice and get that advice in writing, even if you have to pay for it.
There is too much as stake if you get it wrong.
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Post by annabellespapa on Aug 12, 2021 9:55:46 GMT 1
Friends many years ago let the local handyman have access to a meadow and cider apple orchard, payment was a few bottles of calvados a year. They also retained him to do maintenance and paid him a very small monthly retainer. Over 20 years on they still have to pay his son the retainer (as he passed it on to him when he retired) and the son still has a local farmer collect the hay and the apples from his orchard for a few bottles of calvados a year.
Don’t do anything until you are in situ and understand the system. French farmers can be cunning and see an opportunity in everything and a new arrival can be rich pickings for years to come.
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Post by Olave H on Aug 12, 2021 10:26:39 GMT 1
Be very carefull !
A lady bought a house not far from us complete with a field adjacent the house she wished to use for her horses.
She subsequently found out that a farmer had been using the field, would not give up the rights he had apparently acquired & turfed her off her own land.
She is now renting another parcel of grazing land having given up all hope of ever being able to use her own field. My advice would be to NOT entertain letting anyone else use the land unless very strict legal controls are in place enabling you to retain full rights over it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 11:34:17 GMT 1
Pay heed to the advice on this thread. I learned of situations like this when I bought my place. I was dealing with a reasonable person fortunately, nevertheless I sought legal advice. And don't accept gifts. They could be construed as payment.
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Post by Polarengineer on Aug 12, 2021 14:51:37 GMT 1
I had a similar experience with a local farmer. When we bought the place, Safer, the agent, told the farmer to vacate the field. He would not and this led Safer (and me ) to go through court, appeal court, and finally Paris top court. He lost them all at an estimated €25000 in costs, however I also lost €500 in tax paid on the lawyer costs, which is not recoverable. The field was only 2 and a bit hectares. I understand that the land has to be a certain size if the using farmer can claim possession or be exchanged for a similar size parcel of land.
I use my field for horses and have an agreement with a farmer to cut it for hay. He keeps the hay and will bring me 10 rolls on demand as I need them and pay him for extra rolls required through the winter. He also chain harrows and fertilizes the land. He gets about 30 rolls off of it in a season. I think I'm on to a good deal. So far there is nothing in writing and the farmer is a genuine hero.
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Post by helenof on Aug 12, 2021 20:00:48 GMT 1
Thanks for all the replies. The general gist of things confirms my suspicions. Better to let the land lie fallow until my French is better. One thing that's puzzling me....if you need to construct a fosse toutes eaux for the cottage, why would you be running a pipe under the road? Either your commune has (or is planning) mains drainage, or it hasn't. A fosse is autonomous. Or is it more a case of running a pipe from the new filter bed to join an existing run-off pipe?
The hameau doesn't have mains drainage. The property is on a slope. The cottage is next to the road and the available land on the cottage side of the road is uphill of the cottage. Across the road is downhill and that seems to me to be the natural drain-off direction. Apparently the closest neighbour also has his fosse on the opposite (downhill) side of the rd. |
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FFS
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As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
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Post by FFS on Aug 12, 2021 20:02:57 GMT 1
That last bit makes logical sense.
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Post by helenof on Aug 12, 2021 20:11:23 GMT 1
I had a similar experience with a local farmer. When we bought the place, Safer, the agent, told the farmer to vacate the field. He would not and this led Safer (and me ) to go through court, appeal court, and finally Paris top court. He lost them all at an estimated €25000 in costs, however I also lost €500 in tax paid on the lawyer costs, which is not recoverable. The field was only 2 and a bit hectares. I understand that the land has to be a certain size if the using farmer can claim possession or be exchanged for a similar size parcel of land. I use my field for horses and have an agreement with a farmer to cut it for hay. He keeps the hay and will bring me 10 rolls on demand as I need them and pay him for extra rolls required through the winter. He also chain harrows and fertilizes the land. He gets about 30 rolls off of it in a season. I think I'm on to a good deal. So far there is nothing in writing and the farmer is a genuine hero. Is your present arrangement through Safer? Or did you negotiate the deal via another route?
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Post by Polarengineer on Aug 13, 2021 12:51:47 GMT 1
We bought through Safer as it is classed as an agricultural property with 20 hectares of woodland and parks.
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