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Post by traveller on Jul 12, 2021 19:28:32 GMT 1
Just watching The Chase tonight question about Welsh surnames and I half remembered a ditty which ended “ and then he cried in languid tone call all the other thousands Jones”. Or something to that effect. I’ve had a look on the inter web but can’t find it can anyone else remember it?
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Post by stevefrance64 on Jul 12, 2021 22:21:38 GMT 1
Although Jones is a common Welsh surname the letter J has only recently appeared in the Welsh alphabet
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Post by beejay on Jul 14, 2021 15:32:42 GMT 1
Although Jones is a common Welsh surname the letter J has only recently appeared in the Welsh alphabet
That raises the question of how Jones was spelt prior to J being introduced?
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Post by stevefrance64 on Jul 14, 2021 16:48:56 GMT 1
I found this interesting item www.quora.com/Why-if-there-is-no-J-in-the-Welsh-alphabet-why-is-Jones-a-popular-Welsh-surnameThe short answer is that John has long been one of the most common male forenames, and that Wales was conquered by the English before fixed surnames were used. To elaborate and explain: Most Welsh surnames are based on a patronymic system - Welsh people were traditionally named things like Owain ap Siôn - Owen son of John.The letter J made its way from England to Wales via English aristocrats, administrators and other immigrants, and so did the system of fixed surnames. Owain would be given a surname based on his existing name; if he’d been English he might have been called Johnson, but in Wales Jones or Siôn or John might have been used instead. His children would now use this surname too, instead of being called ap Owain.
As Welsh-speakers became increasingly familiar with English over time, and with the letter J, they have tended more and more to use forms of names that have a J in rather than the versions where J has been changed to the closest native equivalent, Si. The administrators of church and state were servants of the English monarch, and generally kept their records in English, so someone might be recorded as David Jenkins in a parish register but have been called Dafydd Siencyn by his Welsh-speaking neighbours.
I’ve seen monumental inscriptions where the English form of the name is recorded with the date of death, and the Welsh form of the forename is given in a poem following. As ordinary people became literate, it became possible for names to be spelled consistently over time in records - before people could read, they told the vicar, who was often not a local man, their name and he wrote it how he thought it should be spelled, and that spelling might be differently from how the previous vicar had spelled it. Once people could correct the vicar because they knew how they spelled their name, they could in theory ensure it was spelled the same every time and that their children spelled it the same way they did. But because English was the language of power & authority & official records, of education and worldly success, the consistent spelling that ended up being used in most Welsh names in Victorian and Edwardian times was the English spelling and not the Welsh ones. There has been a gradual regrowth of Welsh-language names (as opposed to Anglicized Welsh names) over the last few generations.
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Post by beejay on Jul 15, 2021 10:21:32 GMT 1
I found this interesting item www.quora.com/Why-if-there-is-no-J-in-the-Welsh-alphabet-why-is-Jones-a-popular-Welsh-surnameThe short answer is that John has long been one of the most common male forenames, and that Wales was conquered by the English before fixed surnames were used. To elaborate and explain: Most Welsh surnames are based on a patronymic system - Welsh people were traditionally named things like Owain ap Siôn - Owen son of John.The letter J made its way from England to Wales via English aristocrats, administrators and other immigrants, and so did the system of fixed surnames. Owain would be given a surname based on his existing name; if he’d been English he might have been called Johnson, but in Wales Jones or Siôn or John might have been used instead. His children would now use this surname too, instead of being called ap Owain.
As Welsh-speakers became increasingly familiar with English over time, and with the letter J, they have tended more and more to use forms of names that have a J in rather than the versions where J has been changed to the closest native equivalent, Si. The administrators of church and state were servants of the English monarch, and generally kept their records in English, so someone might be recorded as David Jenkins in a parish register but have been called Dafydd Siencyn by his Welsh-speaking neighbours.
I’ve seen monumental inscriptions where the English form of the name is recorded with the date of death, and the Welsh form of the forename is given in a poem following. As ordinary people became literate, it became possible for names to be spelled consistently over time in records - before people could read, they told the vicar, who was often not a local man, their name and he wrote it how he thought it should be spelled, and that spelling might be differently from how the previous vicar had spelled it. Once people could correct the vicar because they knew how they spelled their name, they could in theory ensure it was spelled the same every time and that their children spelled it the same way they did. But because English was the language of power & authority & official records, of education and worldly success, the consistent spelling that ended up being used in most Welsh names in Victorian and Edwardian times was the English spelling and not the Welsh ones. There has been a gradual regrowth of Welsh-language names (as opposed to Anglicized Welsh names) over the last few generations.
Thank you for the explanation.
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Nifty
Member
Posts: 5,040
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Post by Nifty on Jul 16, 2021 6:47:19 GMT 1
Myfanwy
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Post by traveller on Jul 16, 2021 10:14:19 GMT 1
I’ve found this now, A poem quoted by Trevor Fishwick (Wales and the Welsh, 1972) sums up the exasperation of a 19th century English judge trying to sort out the Welsh people in his court.
Then strove the judge with might and main The sounding consonants to write But when the day was almost gone He found his work not nearly done. His ears assailed most woefully With names like Rhys ap Griffith Ddu. Aneirin, Iorwerth Ieuan Goch And Llywarach Hen o Abersoch, Taliesin ap Llewelyn Fawr And Llun ap Arthur bach y Cawr. Until at length, in sheer despair, He doffed his wig and tore his hair. And said he would no longer stand The surnames of our native land. “Take ten,” he said, “and call them Rice; Take other ten and call them Price. Take fifty others call them Pughs, A hundred more I’ll dub them Hughes. Now Roberts name some hundred score And Williams name a legion more. And call”, he moaned in languid tones, “Call all the others (blank, blank) Jones.”
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