FFS
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As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
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Post by FFS on Nov 10, 2021 20:53:03 GMT 1
We had this from houpla the other day. Then tonight, on the news about the missing female 17-year-old jogger (who has thankfuylly now been found, having escaped her abductors), there was this line: "Qu'est-ce que lui est-il arrivé ?" (the indications given by the phrase out of context imply it's a male), and another report, about a man being hit by a car: "Un homme était fauché par une voiture....la victime, quant à elle...", and non-francophones are thinking, 'What woman? They didn't mention a woman! I thought it was a man hit by the car...'
It's a funny old language, French.
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FFS
Member
As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
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Post by FFS on Nov 10, 2021 21:01:14 GMT 1
By the way, the following...
in normal, everyday, French is: "C'est quoi, ça?"
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Post by pcpa on Nov 10, 2021 21:53:20 GMT 1
Is the second "que" not superflous or even incorrect in the first phrase?
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Post by houpla on Nov 10, 2021 22:00:08 GMT 1
No. I can't explain why, but going directly to 'cette chose' sounds all wrong  The change of gender as in 'La victime' or 'la personne' has caught me out a few times. It gets you re-reading the article, though, to make sure |
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FFS
Member
As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
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Post by FFS on Nov 10, 2021 22:15:24 GMT 1
Is the second "que" not superflous or even incorrect in the first phrase? I put "Qu'est-ce que c'est que cette chose-là?" into DeepL and got this in English: "What's this thing?" - so I don't think the second 'que' is wrong. |
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Post by pcpa on Nov 10, 2021 23:14:00 GMT 1
I'm sure it's not, it sounds wrong to my ears, I hear and would say it without the "que" but I am exposed to French spoken terribly.
It's reassuring to hear that without the second "que" it sounds wrong to Houpla.
I'm sure most of us have been wrong-footed by la personne
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dilly
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near Limoges, Haute Vienne
Posts: 105
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Post by dilly on Nov 11, 2021 10:22:12 GMT 1
The second "que" is necessary. Compare: The car (that) I drive is really economical - in English the relative pronoun "that" is often omitted. You can't do the same in French. La voiture que je conduis est vraiment économique. And talking about funny languages - go and explain to a learner of English the need for "do" in questions and negative sentences: Do you like chocolate? (not to mention the lack of articles) "Fais-tu aimer chocolat?"  PS - Will you forgive me for correcting this sentence, FFS? Qu'est-ce que lui est-il arrivé ? should be "qu'est-ce qui lui est arrivé ?" or some might say "qu'est-ce qu'il lui est arrivé ?" or "qu'est-il arrivé à XX".  |
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Post by houpla on Nov 11, 2021 10:27:47 GMT 1
That's what I meant, dilly. Wonderfully explained
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FFS
Member
As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
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Post by FFS on Nov 11, 2021 10:48:59 GMT 1
PS - Will you forgive me for correcting this sentence, FFS? Qu'est-ce que lui est-il arrivé ? should be "qu'est-ce qui lui est arrivé ?" or some might say "qu'est-ce qu'il lui est arrivé ?" or "qu'est-il arrivé à XX". , the phrase as I wrote it was what was posted as a question on the screen during the news on TF1, so it seems that even the French may be wrong, even though DeepL translates "Qu'est-ce que lui est-il arrivé ?" as "What happened to him?", with alternatives offered being "What happened to her?" and "What happened to it?" |
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dilly
Member
near Limoges, Haute Vienne
Posts: 105
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Post by dilly on Nov 11, 2021 11:24:36 GMT 1
Yes with the pronoun "lui" it's impossible to tell the gender of the person referred to. To clarify what you mean, you have to add more information: Qu'est-ce qui lui est arrivé à cette jeune fille ? for example. But what drew my attention was the use of "qu'est-ce que" along with the inverted verb / subject "est-il" in the same sentence. You would use one or the other but not both. If you search for "qu'est-ce que lui est-il arrivé" in google, you get 0 results. |
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Post by Seaboots on Nov 11, 2021 11:45:11 GMT 1
My brain hurts….
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FFS
Member
As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
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Post by FFS on Nov 11, 2021 11:52:54 GMT 1
I've just watched the extract from the news last night and I must have misremembered, because what I thought I saw isn't there.  |
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dilly
Member
near Limoges, Haute Vienne
Posts: 105
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Post by dilly on Nov 11, 2021 12:26:10 GMT 1
Naw... it's easy peasy!  I do that all the time... |
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Post by Seaboots on Nov 11, 2021 12:58:43 GMT 1
Naw... it's easy peasy! I’ve been trying to master French since 1972, most of that time living in France and I’m still clueless, well relatively anyway. I do ok but I would really benefit from some serious French lessons to learn the basics of grammar. |
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suein56
Member
Southern Morbihan 56 Brittany
Posts: 8,179
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Post by suein56 on Nov 11, 2021 13:15:07 GMT 1
Yes with the pronoun "lui" it's impossible to tell the gender of the person referred to. To clarify what you mean, you have to add more information: Qu'est-ce qui lui est arrivé à cette jeune fille ? for example. But what drew my attention was the use of "qu'est-ce que" along with the inverted verb / subject "est-il" in the same sentence. You would use one or the other but not both. If you search for "qu'est-ce que lui est-il arrivé" in google, you get 0 results. The following discussion is not quite the same but it's v close .. forum.wordreference.com/threads/quest-ce-qui-quil-test-arriv%C3%A9.1893526/ |
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