dilly
Member
near Limoges, Haute Vienne
Posts: 105
|
Post by dilly on Nov 11, 2021 14:36:07 GMT 1
I'm sure you're not.  I love Word Reference, Sue. I learn something new on there every day, usually slight differences between American and British English. I'm an active member mainly on the English-French forum. |
|
FFS
Member
As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
|
Post by FFS on Nov 11, 2021 17:22:42 GMT 1
I used to visit WR regularly but got out of the habit.
|
|
|
|
Post by ajm on Nov 11, 2021 18:21:11 GMT 1
Yes with the pronoun "lui" it's impossible to tell the gender of the person referred to. To clarify what you mean, you have to add more information: Qu'est-ce qui lui est arrivé à cette jeune fille ? for example. But what drew my attention was the use of "qu'est-ce que" along with the inverted verb / subject "est-il" in the same sentence. You would use one or the other but not both. If you search for "qu'est-ce que lui est-il arrivé" in google, you get 0 results. The following discussion is not quite the same but it's v close .. forum.wordreference.com/threads/quest-ce-qui-quil-test-arriv%C3%A9.1893526/Thanks suein56 for the link to word reference -- it looks interesting. |
|
suein56
Member
Southern Morbihan 56 Brittany
Posts: 8,178
|
Post by suein56 on Nov 11, 2021 18:28:37 GMT 1
Thanks suein56 for the link to word reference -- it looks interesting. Some of my friends are translators here and they recommended word reference to me early on as being a valuable translation tool ..the forum giving insight into other aspects of (French) language usage.
It covers many languages in good depth tho it can have a tendance to be a bit sniffy sometimes about argot.
|
|
|
|
Post by pcpa on Nov 11, 2021 18:30:08 GMT 1
I’ve been trying to master French since 1972, most of that time living in France and I’m still clueless, well relatively anyway. I do ok but I would really benefit from some serious French lessons to learn the basics of grammar. That is exactly what I had, only for 9 months mores the pity and after 18 months of trying my hardest to find any lessons or classes. At the time I found it a very difficult slog (I was taught zero English grammar at school) and was making minimal progress in comprehension and speech compared to the progressive child like teaching I had in intensive immersion learning of Spanish but boy did it stand me in good stead for my informal learning ever since. I am competent and comfortable reading and writing in French, all my business dealings are in French, others who speak better French than me struggle with reading and have to get their French spouses to write any letters for them.
|
|
|
|
Post by houpla on Nov 11, 2021 19:36:20 GMT 1
Français Facile is another good resource. They send you a little test each week by e-mail and you can do as much as you want on top.
|
|
|
|
Post by leclairon on Nov 20, 2021 11:13:04 GMT 1
Thanks for the sources and tips on grammar - am always interested in anything to improve la langue. However, is there any way to improve one's accent? I am pretty fluent in all aspects but know I have a terrible accent and don't have the natural rolling "r". I only have to say 'bonjour' and they reply in English. I wonder if it is impossible to get the 'accent' in later years unless you have learnt the language as a young child - would be interested to see what others think?
Am happy that I can function and be understood in the language, which is the most important, but would like to work on the accent!
|
|
FFS
Member
As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
|
Post by FFS on Nov 20, 2021 11:22:35 GMT 1
Apparently the French find French spoken with an English accent 'sexy'. One of the problems with English speakers speaking French is being too hard with the consonants so the words don't flow; relax your mouth and speak it without stressing the consonants and it comes out more smoothly.
|
|
curtis
Member
Charente Maritime
Posts: 540 
|
Post by curtis on Nov 20, 2021 11:23:27 GMT 1
I thought I read somewhere that after a certain age it was very difficult to perfect an accent as the mouth had adapted to your langue maternelle.
The most important thing for me is that I can converse and communicate with few problems. Yes, it would be nice if the accent was better but I have been told it is charming. I'll settle for that!
|
|
dilly
Member
near Limoges, Haute Vienne
Posts: 105
|
Post by dilly on Nov 20, 2021 13:13:53 GMT 1
Yes, making yourself understood is the main thing.
I know an English person who has difficulties with vowel sounds though. They confuse things like "de" and "deux" and differentiating "deux euros" and "douze euros".
They stress words too as in English. The word they are using is correct but stressing the next to last syllable makes it virtually incomprehensible, especially as they reduce the vowel of the first syllable
I've heard words that sound like:
kessOOlay
tebOOlay
klefOOty
There's no stress in French - or if you really must stress a syllable with these words it's more understandable on the first:
cassoulet [kassooleh]
taboulet [tabooleh]
clafoutis [klafootee]
|
|
FFS
Member
As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
|
Post by FFS on Nov 20, 2021 13:20:31 GMT 1
Yes, making yourself understood is the main thing. I know an English person who has difficulties with vowel sounds though. They confuse things like "de" and "deux" and differentiating "deux euros" and "douze euros". They stress words too as in English. The word they are using is correct but stressing the next to last syllable makes it virtually incomprehensible, especially as they reduce the vowel of the first syllable I've heard words that sound like: kess OOlay teb OOlay klef OOty There's no stress in French - or if you really must stress a syllable with these words it's more understandable on the first: cassoulet [ kassooleh] taboulet [ tabooleh] clafoutis [ klafootee] I agree with all you say except the last part; I would say that most polysyllabic words in French are stressed, but on the last syllable:
bonjour jusificatif campagne cassoulet
|
|
dilly
Member
near Limoges, Haute Vienne
Posts: 105
|
Post by dilly on Nov 20, 2021 17:15:13 GMT 1
Many linguists would disagree with you, FFS French is a syllable-timed language ... That being said, stress is usually given to the last syllable in a group of words. English is a stress-timed language, so if you look up words in a (good) dictionary, you get the phonetic pronunciation along with stress marks: good morning [ˈgʊd ˈmɔːnɪŋ] justification [ˌdʒʌstɪfɪˈkeɪʃən] countryside [ˈkʌntrisaɪd] (ˈ for primary stress, ˌ for secondary stress) In French you'll find the phonetic pronunciation but no stress marks: bonjour [bɔ̃ʒuʀ] justificatif [ʒystifikatif] campagne [kɑ̃paɲ] |
|
FFS
Member
As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
Posts: 2,797
|
Post by FFS on Nov 20, 2021 17:53:13 GMT 1
And while many (not all) linguists may disagree with me, in polysyllabic French words in isolation, the stress is usually on the last syllable of the word, though in a group of words, it's on the last syllable in the group. I still disagree, and so does my wife, that, "There's no stress in French - or if you really must stress a syllable with these words it's more understandable on the first" - for me, it's the last. |
|
dilly
Member
near Limoges, Haute Vienne
Posts: 105
|
Post by dilly on Nov 20, 2021 18:19:05 GMT 1
We'll have to agree to disagree Even in isolation, I can't hear any stress...  |
|
|
|
Post by pcpa on Nov 20, 2021 19:51:25 GMT 1
My speech, like my life, is stress free 
It probably isn't as people in general understand me and say I speak French well but I don't understand any of the grammatical terms like sylables, stress, phonetics and the phonetic spelling in dictionnaries is Double Dutch to me, a real shame as my friend who understands it uses it all the time when in doubt, it would be a very usefull tool.
To Curtis, whilst it is undoubtedly more difficult to learn a new language the older you get I don't think it inhibits one being able to perfect an accent, for me its simply listening and mimicking and checking on oneself by judging peoples comprehension from their facial expression. I have noticed in the area I am (hopefully) moving to that a lot of the Brits that do speak good French do so with a very poor Sarf London accent and prononciation, I think it comes from hearing French spoken by their peers, I am lucky to have been in total immersion since 2005.
|
|
