FFS
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Post by FFS on Sept 5, 2021 20:08:15 GMT 1
Please, this thread was not of my making, .... It was not of your making, no, but it's due to what you added and insisteded on in the other thread, so you bear some responisibility for it.
Perhaps I'm misreading or misunderstanding something that doesn't actually apply to me (because I'm resident and work in France); do you mean to say, @grumpyish, that if you are retired and living in France as a permanent resident, with your only financial income being a UK-based pension - which is taxed in the UK - that you don't need to complete a French tax form?
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Post by Dominic Best on Sept 5, 2021 20:19:29 GMT 1
Everyone resident in France has to make a tax return whether they pay their taxes here or not. We communicated with the International office as has already been said. A tax return is to the local tax office. Read a bit deeper on the french tax website and you will find that if tax resident in UK (ie not in france) a tax return is not require. Sorry, but I've had enough now too. No. In April/May 2021 you must have been resident in France. As a resident in France you had to make a tax return for the tax year 2020 declaring your Worldwide income even if you were not resident in France at the time or have any income liable for tax in France. You also needed to declare all your Worldwide bank accounts etc. A bit of advice, talk to your local tax office. Did you answer the question about which CDS you had?
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ibis
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Post by ibis on Sept 5, 2021 20:41:40 GMT 1
We may be witnessing the first expulsion of a Brit cds holder from France shortly... That'll make the connection, mail or other rags...
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Post by hal on Sept 5, 2021 20:48:39 GMT 1
can your OH accept that after reading the references that I/we are tax resident in the UK and confirm the reason why you are not. 1. No 2. mmm. I'd rather not, suffice to say I am 100% resident in France.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2021 21:17:05 GMT 1
Mrs Grumpyish here
Firstly I have no idea what qualifications Mrs Hal has but I was a senior tax manager with KPMG and then with Deloitte. I was also head of tax for a very well known UK bank. I have also worked as interim European and global head of tax for well known household globals dealing with expat tax in 30 jurisdictions. I have also worked with HMRC in the drafting of tax legislation and have been on a number of national and international tax consultancy forum.
To understand where you are tax resident you need to first establish whether you are resident under the domestic law of the respective countries. If you are deemed tax resident in two jurisdictions you then need to refer to the DTT as previously mentioned.
To Hal: income tax is only one aspect of taxation. You also need to consider wealth tax ((IFI) on investments >€1.3m) and inheritance tax. The latter can be very expensive with only nominal amounts of tax free allowance to children of the deceased when compared to the UK. If you are tax resident in France for a number of years then you will become tax domiciled in France (not the same as tax resident) which will bring your entire worldwide estate into charge to French inheritance tax. This could make any income tax gains from lower French tax pale into insignificance. We would not want to be domiciled in France as it would have a catastrophic impact on our children's inheritance.
I wonder whether some of the commentators on here would also want to direct their surgeon on how he should be carrying out their cardiac bypass surgery. In the words of Abraham Lincoln: "Better to remain silent......."
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FFS
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Post by FFS on Sept 5, 2021 21:24:21 GMT 1
If you're still looking in, Mrs Grumpyish, could you please give an answer to my simple question here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2021 21:32:28 GMT 1
Please, this thread was not of my making, .... It was not of your making, no, but it's due to what you added and insisteded on in the other thread, so you bear some responisibility for it.
Perhaps I'm misreading or misunderstanding something that doesn't actually apply to me (because I'm resident and work in France); do you mean to say, @grumpyish , that if you are retired and living in France as a permanent resident, with your only financial income being a UK-based pension - which is taxed in the UK - that you don't need to complete a French tax form?
Mrs Grumpish: Its nothing to do with your income per se. It's to do with the ties you have retained with the UK. The question is whether you have lost your UK tax residency. For those who have sold their UK home, moved to France and are working in France they are highly unlikely to have retained UK tax residence. The crucial thing is whether you are a) still considered UK tax resident under the SRT and if so b) what the DTT tie break clause says.
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Post by Dominic Best on Sept 5, 2021 21:37:43 GMT 1
It was not of your making, no, but it's due to what you added and insisteded on in the other thread, so you bear some responisibility for it.
Perhaps I'm misreading or misunderstanding something that doesn't actually apply to me (because I'm resident and work in France); do you mean to say, @grumpyish , that if you are retired and living in France as a permanent resident, with your only financial income being a UK-based pension - which is taxed in the UK - that you don't need to complete a French tax form?
Mrs Grumpish: Its nothing to do with your income per se. It's to do with the ties you have retained with the UK. The question is whether you have lost your UK tax residency. For those who have sold their UK home, moved to France and are working in France they are highly unlikely to have retained UK tax residence. The crucial thing is whether you are a) still considered UK tax resident under the SRT and if so b) what the DTT tie break clause says. Forget tax residency and consider residency, as provided by your CdS (WARP). To hold that you must have been resident in France in April/May 2021 when, as a resident, you were required to complete a French tax return. You claiming that a U.K. regulation allows you to be a U.K. tax resident does not give you the right to ignore that requirement. Taking on residence comes with responsibilities.
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FFS
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As usual, in front of my laptop when I'm here
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Post by FFS on Sept 5, 2021 21:52:22 GMT 1
It was not of your making, no, but it's due to what you added and insisteded on in the other thread, so you bear some responisibility for it.
Perhaps I'm misreading or misunderstanding something that doesn't actually apply to me (because I'm resident and work in France); do you mean to say, @grumpyish , that if you are retired and living in France as a permanent resident, with your only financial income being a UK-based pension - which is taxed in the UK - that you don't need to complete a French tax form?
Mrs Grumpish: Its nothing to do with your income per se. It's to do with the ties you have retained with the UK. The question is whether you have lost your UK tax residency. For those who have sold their UK home, moved to France and are working in France they are highly unlikely to have retained UK tax residence. The crucial thing is whether you are a) still considered UK tax resident under the SRT and if so b) what the DTT tie break clause says. Ask a simple question, get a complicated answer.
Trying again. Let's say I have retired, have no UK address, live permanently in France, and only have my UK pension to live on - do I need to complete a French tax return?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2021 21:55:57 GMT 1
This is now Grump.
DB - what rubbish.
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exile
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Post by exile on Sept 5, 2021 22:00:18 GMT 1
Please, this thread was not of my making, .... It was not of your making, no, but it's due to what you added and insisteded on in the other thread, so you bear some responisibility for it.
Perhaps I'm misreading or misunderstanding something that doesn't actually apply to me (because I'm resident and work in France); do you mean to say, @grumpyish , that if you are retired and living in France as a permanent resident, with your only financial income being a UK-based pension - which is taxed in the UK - that you don't need to complete a French tax form?
Before the hang'em brigade get over enthused. Without knowing any details of Grumpyish's details, it is possible to be in France full time and still declare that your financial interests remain in the UK and therefore remain as UK statutory residents. It requires the sort of financial machinations that many of us find abusive when applied to high up politicians and influencers but the fact remains it is 100% legal. I did not think this was the case, but having studied in detail the dtt - which I actually thought I knew and understood- there are loopholes there that allow the clever and monied or connected to find ways that might improve their situation. Grumpyish and his OH have exploited one of these. Do not blame them, blame the legislation. The downside for them as far as I can see is that any application for long term TdS will be seen as suspect. It may not be so, because they have said they are French resident but statutorily UK fiscally resident and the fiscs have accepted this but that is not my decision that lies with the fiscs. #Whether this is ethical, I leave to all of you to PRIVATELY reach a conclusion.
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exile
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Post by exile on Sept 5, 2021 22:03:31 GMT 1
Mrs Grumpish: Its nothing to do with your income per se. It's to do with the ties you have retained with the UK. The question is whether you have lost your UK tax residency. For those who have sold their UK home, moved to France and are working in France they are highly unlikely to have retained UK tax residence. The crucial thing is whether you are a) still considered UK tax resident under the SRT and if so b) what the DTT tie break clause says. Ask a simple question, get a complicated answer.
Trying again. Let's say I have retired, have no UK address, live permanently in France, and only have my UK pension to live on - do I need to complete a French tax return?
That is certainly a key. No UK address and limited chances to prove UK statutory tax residence.
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exile
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Post by exile on Sept 5, 2021 22:09:28 GMT 1
Mrs Grumpish: Its nothing to do with your income per se. It's to do with the ties you have retained with the UK. The question is whether you have lost your UK tax residency. For those who have sold their UK home, moved to France and are working in France they are highly unlikely to have retained UK tax residence. The crucial thing is whether you are a) still considered UK tax resident under the SRT and if so b) what the DTT tie break clause says. Forget tax residency and consider residency, as provided by your CdS (WARP). To hold that you must have been resident in France in April/May 2021 when, as a resident, you were required to complete a French tax return. You claiming that a U.K. regulation allows you to be a U.K. tax resident does not give you the right to ignore that requirement. Taking on residence comes with responsibilities. You cannot forget tax residency. That defines where you are taxed. Regarding the TdS under WARP there are interesting points. The French tax authorities have accepted the UK tax predominance. this despite physical location in France. The open question is if the authorities then accept long term residency without tax liability. Not our question to answer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2021 22:11:42 GMT 1
We actually need to be in the UK for more than 90 days each year because Grumpyish's brother is dying and my parents are very elderly and my mother is seriously ill. But you all go and knock yourselves out with your conspiracy theories....
I now know why I detest anglophone forums full of Brit expats, all congratulating each other on how well they are integrated into French life...but Mr Grumpyish seems to like it so each to their own...
Mrs Grumpyish
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Post by manonthemoon2 on Sept 5, 2021 22:18:57 GMT 1
We're not all like that Mrs grumpyish
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